Author Topic: Fairing reuse  (Read 437599 times)

Offline sevenperforce

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #360 on: 05/16/2016 12:46 PM »
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/732042627445460992

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Raket_Mand @bittdk
@elonmusk how did the recovery of the fairings go?

Quote
Elon Musk ‏@elonmusk  1h1 hour ago
@bittdk Better. Not there yet, but a solution is likely.
Good to see an update on this.

With the current ballistic re-entry, what are the estimated damage ratios? Like, 40% re-entry and 60% ocean impact? Or flipped?

Offline cscott

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #361 on: 05/16/2016 04:20 PM »
We haven't seen any recovered fairing pieces come back on go searcher yet.  So I'd say 100% re-entry right now.  The re-entry damage is sufficient to destroy any chance of recovering locatable pieces at least.

Offline RDMM2081

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #362 on: 05/16/2016 04:39 PM »
Sorry if this is too elementary of a question or if I missed it being asked or answered previously, but is there any indication if the fairing pieces have any GPS or beacon tracking capabilities yet?  This would assume that the recovery boat could at least check in the right location to find any pieces that did make it to the surface. 

edit: removed GPS, apparently off-the-shelf models "self-destruct" upon nearing anything resembling ICBM speeds/altitudes, also removed completely redundant link to old article after re-reading the thread.

Still seems to me like finding any pieces of currently designed fairing is the most informative path forward to inform any more advanced recovery options in the future after seeing what the pieces look like, just need to find some.
« Last Edit: 05/16/2016 06:44 PM by RDMM2081 »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #363 on: 05/16/2016 07:53 PM »
edit: removed GPS, apparently off-the-shelf models "self-destruct" upon nearing anything resembling ICBM speeds/altitudes, also removed completely redundant link to old article after re-reading the thread.

Self destruct??? More like become civilian off the shelf devices become inaccurate because they can not properly process the timing signals and arrive at the correct result. Once they slow down, like hitting terminal velocity or bobbing in the ocean, accuracy should be restored.
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Online launchwatcher

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #364 on: 05/16/2016 08:44 PM »
edit: removed GPS, apparently off-the-shelf models "self-destruct" upon nearing anything resembling ICBM speeds/altitudes, also removed completely redundant link to old article after re-reading the thread.

Self destruct??? More like become civilian off the shelf devices become inaccurate because they can not properly process the timing signals and arrive at the correct result. Once they slow down, like hitting terminal velocity or bobbing in the ocean, accuracy should be restored.
Commodity GPS receivers have hard-coded speed and altitude limits and will shut down if they see they're moving too fast and/or too high.   

See, for instance, http://support.spectracom.com/articles/FAQ/Why-are-there-altitude-and-velocity-limits-for-GPS-equipment

Receivers without the limits are subject to export controls to ensure they don't end up guiding ICBM's.

Offline manoweb

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #365 on: 05/16/2016 09:41 PM »
I believe SpaceX might have the permissions in place to use GPS units that are enabled to work in a "rocket" scenario.

Offline RDMM2081

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #366 on: 05/16/2016 09:54 PM »
edit: removed GPS, apparently off-the-shelf models "self-destruct" upon nearing anything resembling ICBM speeds/altitudes, also removed completely redundant link to old article after re-reading the thread.

Self destruct??? More like become civilian off the shelf devices become inaccurate because they can not properly process the timing signals and arrive at the correct result. Once they slow down, like hitting terminal velocity or bobbing in the ocean, accuracy should be restored.
Commodity GPS receivers have hard-coded speed and altitude limits and will shut down if they see they're moving too fast and/or too high.   

See, for instance, http://support.spectracom.com/articles/FAQ/Why-are-there-altitude-and-velocity-limits-for-GPS-equipment

Receivers without the limits are subject to export controls to ensure they don't end up guiding ICBM's.

Yeah, shut down is probably a better way to phrase it than "self-destruct", and that is the "feature" I was referring to, sorry if that was overly dramatic...  Also, SpaceX probably does have access to the "military grade" receivers so GPS might still be an option, but definitely not as easy as gluing a Garmin inside the fairing and seeing what happens.  Some sort of transmitter beacon seems much more likely to me.  Assuming they are doing any tracking at all, but otherwise how would they find any fairing which did make it to the surface, either intact, or in large enough pieces to be found?

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #367 on: 05/17/2016 01:28 AM »
Uuuuum... Radar, the range does track these things and they do know where they generally splashed. Add to that for a fairing to survive it's final speed will be slow enough that civilian gps systems will work. Impact will not be at mach 10.

Easiest solution, stick an iridium phone in each half and have it call home as soon as it splashed down. The phone will have gps. I don't know how fancy iridium phones are, but maybe they can write an app. Provide it a Twitter feed. Tweets like whoa, that was intense, and a shark just swam by. They did get a go pro back from one of the fairings.
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #368 on: 05/17/2016 01:32 AM »
Also, a spaceX fairing has already washed ashore. It had a go pro in it, and they did post the video.
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Offline meekGee

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #369 on: 05/17/2016 08:55 AM »


Easiest solution, stick an iridium phone in each half and have it call home as soon as it splashed down. The phone will have gps.

Yeah, but who will make the call?

Aha! Trained dolphins!  On both ends of the call of course!  I can see it now!

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Offline JamesH65

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #370 on: 05/17/2016 10:54 AM »
edit: removed GPS, apparently off-the-shelf models "self-destruct" upon nearing anything resembling ICBM speeds/altitudes, also removed completely redundant link to old article after re-reading the thread.

Self destruct??? More like become civilian off the shelf devices become inaccurate because they can not properly process the timing signals and arrive at the correct result. Once they slow down, like hitting terminal velocity or bobbing in the ocean, accuracy should be restored.
Commodity GPS receivers have hard-coded speed and altitude limits and will shut down if they see they're moving too fast and/or too high.   

See, for instance, http://support.spectracom.com/articles/FAQ/Why-are-there-altitude-and-velocity-limits-for-GPS-equipment

Receivers without the limits are subject to export controls to ensure they don't end up guiding ICBM's.

Yeah, shut down is probably a better way to phrase it than "self-destruct", and that is the "feature" I was referring to, sorry if that was overly dramatic...  Also, SpaceX probably does have access to the "military grade" receivers so GPS might still be an option, but definitely not as easy as gluing a Garmin inside the fairing and seeing what happens.  Some sort of transmitter beacon seems much more likely to me.  Assuming they are doing any tracking at all, but otherwise how would they find any fairing which did make it to the surface, either intact, or in large enough pieces to be found?

Even if they had no access to 'military' GPS (ie usable at all speeds and altitudes) hardware, they could always make their own high accuracy system. Already been done by a guy I used to work with.

http://www.aholme.co.uk/GPS/Main.htm


Offline Jim

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #371 on: 05/17/2016 01:48 PM »
but otherwise how would they find any fairing which did make it to the surface, either intact, or in large enough pieces to be found?

They see it floating.  If it sinks they don't care about it.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #372 on: 05/17/2016 02:47 PM »
Uuuuum... Radar, the range does track these things and they do know where they generally splashed. Add to that for a fairing to survive it's final speed will be slow enough that civilian gps systems will work. Impact will not be at mach 10.

Easiest solution, stick an iridium phone in each half and have it call home as soon as it splashed down. The phone will have gps.
No need for even that much. If it's OK with the Coast Guard, they can just stick an off the shelf EPIRB in them with some sort of custom trigger.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #373 on: 05/17/2016 03:11 PM »
No need for even that much. If it's OK with the Coast Guard, they can just stick an off the shelf EPIRB in them with some sort of custom trigger.
Raised eyebrows. Like I said, several off the shelf tracking solutions exists. Miss using EPIRB is not one of them.

The simplest and most foolproof are devices that communicate with existing LEO networks (Orbcomm, Iridium) and just say here I am, over here... Besides, both Orbcomm and Iridium should have very good relations with SpaceX, maybe they will give them a discount.

Heck, Iridium is about to roll out an aircraft tracking service.

No need to invent anything, and the fairings are already coming down intact enough that people do find them from time to time.
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #374 on: 05/17/2016 03:17 PM »
Off the shelf: https://www.iridium.com/products/details/spidertracks-satellite-tracking

Quote
Spidertracks Satellite Tracking

Spidertracks is more than just a tracking system: as well as knowing exactly where people and valuable assets are at any moment in time, it can also tell you how they are. If something goes wrong, and the website loses contact with the spider device, the system will automatically send text and email alerts to the right people, including rescue services, within minutes of the accident occurring. Because the alert is generated by the system, it doesn’t rely on the device surviving an accident, so it will always be sent, enabling rescue services to locate the site quickly based on the last transmitted position. With Spidertracks, no one needs to be lost at sea, on land, or in the air again.

It combines a portable tracking unit, the Spider, with a web-based client interface, enabling users to access their flight following and tracking details from anywhere at any time via the internet. Powered by a 10 V – 32 V power source, it has no external antenna and can be moved between aircraft or vehicles, so it doesn’t require expensive installation or certification. Partnered with Iridium, it offers global coverage.

Spidertracks also offers simple two-way global communication. Customers can send and receive texts with a compatible phone from anywhere on earth, via Iridium, through the Spidertracks website—ideal for anyone who needs to communicate from a remote region without GSM/cellphone coverage.

The unit is portable, with the tracks accessed from any internet connected device, and it is AFF compliant, offering a cost-effective, simple and reliable tracking-based safety system for anyone working or traveling in remote locations or risky situations.

Problem solved. Though, adding a smoke generator and disco lights would be a nice touch.
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It's your med's!

Offline RDMM2081

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #375 on: 05/17/2016 03:44 PM »
but otherwise how would they find any fairing which did make it to the surface, either intact, or in large enough pieces to be found?

They see it floating.  If it sinks they don't care about it.
Uuuuum... Radar, the range does track these things and they do know where they generally splashed. Add to that for a fairing to survive it's final speed will be slow enough that civilian gps systems will work. Impact will not be at mach 10.

Easiest solution, stick an iridium phone in each half and have it call home as soon as it splashed down. The phone will have gps. I don't know how fancy iridium phones are, but maybe they can write an app. Provide it a Twitter feed. Tweets like whoa, that was intense, and a shark just swam by. They did get a go pro back from one of the fairings.

If all the following are true, then what has stopped them before?

1)  SpaceX are and have been interested in fairing recovery
2)  The fairing's are trackable via range radar
3)  One landed intact enough to float to shore

Was the Bahamas fairing making it to shore unclaimed a case where they were simply not interested in tracking it down and attempting recovery?  Or is it harder to find a fairing based only off a "last known position" obtained via range radar and then some hours later when they arrive at the spot, it's not there?  Oceans are big.

I think if the fairings/pieces are making it to the water, SpaceX needs a slightly better method for tracking them down and finding them.  GPS seems doable, but a beacon also seems like a good way to zero in on a spot if you have a ballpark area to start looking (range radar tracking will get you there apparently). 

The other opinion of mine I will toss out there is that they are, can, should, and will continue to experiment with RSC thrusters and start adding deployable control surfaces to help the fairings make it to the surface, in order to be tracked and then recovered.  I am not a fan of any of the "clamshell" or "reassembly" methods described upthread.  I do like the direction of the inflatable recovery mods, either ballooning, ballistic spinup, or just a flotation assist to keep the pieces from sinking.

Offline cscott

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #376 on: 05/17/2016 04:25 PM »
Go Searcher, which we believe to be the fairing recovery ship, has only gone out on the last few (three?) missions.  The washed-ashore fairings were well before that, likely before the fairing recovery program was begin in earnest.  In fact, it may have been those serendipitous discoveries which encouraged them to accelerate fairing recovery.

The fact that two fairing pieces made it to the surface intact doesn't mean they all are doing so.  There may have been luck involved.  Further, they are now experimenting with active recovery mechanisms; it is possible that failures in the active control are leading to worse outcomes (at this early point) than the passive fairings.  It's also possible that Go Searcher's primary role is to capture telemetry from the fairing, and actual recovery of pieces is not a priority.

Lastly, the ocean is a very big place.  They may well have trackers on board, but if the re-entry disables the trackers or tears them loose, Go Searcher might not be able to easily locate any remaining scraps even if they did make it to the surface.  If they know that the pieces they are interested in tend to sink after X hours, then they might not even attempt to rendezvous with any piece further than X hours travel away, so there could be luck in the prelaunch positioning of Go Searcher as well.

So there are lots of possible reasons (and I'm sure others can contribute more) why Go Searcher is still returning empty-handed despite a few instances of large fragments of fairing washing up on shore.  I don't think SpaceX needs our advice on what style of tracker and/or trained dolphin they should be using.
« Last Edit: 05/17/2016 04:29 PM by cscott »

Offline spacenut

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #377 on: 05/17/2016 04:27 PM »
How much would a parachute, beacon, and a flotation bag add to the weight/cost?  Also, how much would a recovery boat operational costs add.  All that subtracted from the cost of the fairing? 

Offline Jim

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #378 on: 05/17/2016 04:29 PM »
It's also possible that Go Searcher's primary role is to capture telemetry from the fairing, and actual recovery of pieces is not a priority.


There is no antenna on it.

The issues is knowing how the fairing is breaking up and placing cameras/"beacons" on the pieces. 

Offline RDMM2081

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #379 on: 05/17/2016 06:17 PM »
Go Searcher, which we believe to be the fairing recovery ship, has only gone out on the last few (three?) missions.  The washed-ashore fairings were well before that, likely before the fairing recovery program was begin in earnest.  In fact, it may have been those serendipitous discoveries which encouraged them to accelerate fairing recovery.

The fact that two fairing pieces made it to the surface intact doesn't mean they all are doing so.  There may have been luck involved.  Further, they are now experimenting with active recovery mechanisms; it is possible that failures in the active control are leading to worse outcomes (at this early point) than the passive fairings.  It's also possible that Go Searcher's primary role is to capture telemetry from the fairing, and actual recovery of pieces is not a priority.

Lastly, the ocean is a very big place.  They may well have trackers on board, but if the re-entry disables the trackers or tears them loose, Go Searcher might not be able to easily locate any remaining scraps even if they did make it to the surface.  If they know that the pieces they are interested in tend to sink after X hours, then they might not even attempt to rendezvous with any piece further than X hours travel away, so there could be luck in the prelaunch positioning of Go Searcher as well.

So there are lots of possible reasons (and I'm sure others can contribute more) why Go Searcher is still returning empty-handed despite a few instances of large fragments of fairing washing up on shore.  I don't think SpaceX needs our advice on what style of tracker and/or trained dolphin they should be using.

Interesting theories (fravorite/relevant ideas bolded), thanks for the response.

Here's another idea from left field, is it possible there are any optical telescope resources on the Go Searcher which could resolve the fairings during the end of their flight rather than the shore based systems which obviously cant resolve the fairings with much clarity once they are 300+ miles downrange?

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