Author Topic: Fairing reuse  (Read 438928 times)

Offline CyndyC

Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #160 on: 03/10/2016 04:28 PM »
Why not develop a fairing that peels back like a banana peel and locks against the second stage skin? Kind of like the legs, but in reverse.

It could be used as a TPS for the second stage so the stage can be recovered.

No need to peel it back if it is taken to orbit.  It could be opened right before spacecraft deployment.  But the fairing would reduce payload mass.

Bouncing off these 2 posts and after reading most everything in the L2 thread on the subject, why not just close the thing back up, and recover stage 2 and the fairing together. During the time the fairing is hanging open for payload separation, the aerodynamics would be related to opening a convertible top while driving, which I was told to never do because it would act like a sail and flip the car, but in space, there you have your boostback maneuver.

Edit: Maybe forget the last part since I just remembered there's little to no air that high, but maybe the shifts in mass could be used to assist in boostback.
« Last Edit: 03/10/2016 05:39 PM by CyndyC »
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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #161 on: 03/10/2016 05:39 PM »
 Atlas has its 5 m faring attached to the first stage. Something like that might make sense for a reasonable fairing since you don't have to take the whole thing to orbit. It would also protect the thermal protection system on the upper stage from water ingress  and condensation while it's sitting on the pad .
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Offline OxCartMark

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #162 on: 03/10/2016 05:59 PM »
Rough numbers but you get the idea;

What's F9's payload capacity to GTO?  10,000 pounds?
What's the weight of the payload fairing?  5,000 pounds?
What's the revised payload capacity if you take the payload fairing along for the whole ride?  ?5000? pounds.

Substitute in actual numbers and you get actually poor numbers.  Weight carried on the first stage is not good.  Weight carried on the second stage is really not good.

Offline mfck

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #163 on: 03/10/2016 06:25 PM »
Atlas has its 5 m faring attached to the first stage. Something like that might make sense for a reasonable fairing since you don't have to take the whole thing to orbit. It would also protect the thermal protection system on the upper stage from water ingress  and condensation while it's sitting on the pad .
Am I right to remember that AV booster separates much higher and at a higher speed?

Offline RanulfC

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #164 on: 03/10/2016 08:58 PM »
Rough numbers but you get the idea;

What's F9's payload capacity to GTO?  10,000 pounds?
What's the weight of the payload fairing?  5,000 pounds?
What's the revised payload capacity if you take the payload fairing along for the whole ride?  ?5000? pounds.

Substitute in actual numbers and you get actually poor numbers.  Weight carried on the first stage is not good.  Weight carried on the second stage is really not good.

Not actual numbers but IIRC the quoted formula was something like order of the 30% penalty for first stage reusability to payload was closer to one-to-one for the second stage, which would include keeping the fairing. The fairing is jettisoned when it is specifically because the mass is enough to impact the payload mass to orbit.

It's been touched on but not addressed specifically as far as I've seen but adding ANY mass to the fairing would also change the separation dynamics. Enough so you'd have to test the whole system again to ensure clean separation from the payload which is your MAIN (and that includes anything about reusability) metric. If they added piping and a thruster, (and really it would be at least four nozzles for proper control) and control and regulator equipment you've off-balanced the system and voided any previous testing results.

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Offline Chris Bergin

Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #165 on: 03/10/2016 09:04 PM »
I'll add my "update" on this after asking around. SpaceX has not commented on it, but a few sources (not SpaceXers it's worth adding) note it was an ACS experiment as part of fairing recovery evaluations.

For it to become official, SpaceX needs to say something and that would likely be either Elon tweeting or Gywnne mentioning it at a conference....but there you go from my chair.

For the interim this can be a fun thread where you talented folks can work the imagery, as we saw with this cool gifs:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37727.msg1500634#msg1500634
« Last Edit: 03/10/2016 09:08 PM by Chris Bergin »

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #166 on: 03/11/2016 07:23 PM »
New image on Facebook.

Anyone recognises the logo in the fairing in the background back right.
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Offline ugordan

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #167 on: 03/11/2016 07:35 PM »
Eutelsat?

FH booster nosecone as well.

Offline Retired Downrange

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #168 on: 03/11/2016 08:08 PM »
Any guesses about what the white curved structure barely visible in the extreme lower right of the photo might be? If it is not part of the building, it certainly is of a much larger diameter that anything else in the photo.
« Last Edit: 03/11/2016 08:08 PM by Retired Downrange »

Offline Kabloona

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #169 on: 03/11/2016 09:40 PM »
Eutelsat?

Probably for Eutelsat's Satmex 9, which is up next after CRS-8.

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #170 on: 03/11/2016 09:55 PM »

Any guesses about what the white curved structure barely visible in the extreme lower right of the photo might be? If it is not part of the building, it certainly is of a much larger diameter that anything else in the photo.
Oven to bake composite structures?

Offline OxCartMark

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #171 on: 03/11/2016 10:46 PM »
Nice pic.  Thanks.  I'm not convinced that the round thing is significantly larger in diameter but maybe it is larger in which case an autoclave makes sense.  Perhaps they chose the interesting route of making their own cylindrical housing with friction stir welding.  Say, what's that robot arm process going on under the unpainted fairing half in the foreground?

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #172 on: 03/12/2016 12:39 AM »
Autoclaves definitely don't look like that.
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Offline Lee Jay

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #173 on: 03/12/2016 12:45 AM »
Autoclaves definitely don't look like that.

Yeah...they look a lot like a submarine with one end that opens.

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #174 on: 03/12/2016 12:47 AM »
And they're made out of thick steel. That thing looks like it's made out of aerospace materials like aluminum or carbon fiber.
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Offline Lee Jay

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #175 on: 03/12/2016 12:53 AM »
Yeah...like a submarine!


Offline Lee Jay

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #176 on: 03/12/2016 12:59 AM »
Do they autoclave their fairings?  That would be a huge autoclave.

Offline virnin

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #177 on: 03/12/2016 01:08 AM »
Any guesses about what the white curved structure barely visible in the extreme lower right of the photo might be? If it is not part of the building, it certainly is of a much larger diameter that anything else in the photo.

It's too blurry to be sure but it looks like there is a removable port near the base like you would see in a boiler or a storage tank that had to be periodically cleaned.

Offline Burninate

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #178 on: 03/12/2016 01:46 AM »
Wild-ass guesses corroborated by nothing whatsoever:

The observed thrust is venting of the remaining pressure in an N2 pneumatic tank normally used in separation, associated with some safety procedure they're testing for Falcon Heavy, which will drop fairings (or perhaps interstage?) on a trajectory much closer to the launchsite in order to optimize RTLS.  They want the chance of ballistically dropping pressurized cylinders near population to be closer to zero than it is at present.

The cylinder is either a finished fairing at an angle, or a fairing spray/cure booth.  As mentioned upthread, fairings are delivered from overseas rather than manufactured in-house, but the center of the picture indicates they may not be painted when they get here.  Alternately, it's possible that it's an interstage or a stage that's simply suffering from some flavor of perspective distortion.
« Last Edit: 03/12/2016 02:04 AM by Burninate »

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #179 on: 03/12/2016 01:57 AM »
Wild-ass guesses corroborated by nothing whatsoever:

The observed thrust is venting of the remaining pressure in an N2 pneumatic tank normally used in separation, associated with some safety procedure they're testing for Falcon Heavy, which will drop fairings (or perhaps interstage?) on a trajectory much closer to the launchsite in order to optimize RTLS.  They want the chance of ballistically dropping pressurized cylinders near population to be closer to zero than it is at present.

The cylinder is either a finished fairing at an angle, or a fairing spray/cure booth.  As mentioned upthread, fairings are delivered from overseas rather than manufactured in-house, but the center of the picture indicates they may not be painted when they get here.  Alternately, it's possible that it's an interstage or a stage that's simply suffering from some flavor of perspective distortion.
They make fairings in-house. Do you have a source for your statement that they aren't?
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