Author Topic: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics  (Read 52966 times)

Online cwr

Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #180 on: 06/28/2018 12:49 AM »

Yeah, it helps to read the article before comment.

That said, does anyone really believe that Boeing is really serious about bringing such a thing to market for commercial travel? I'm asking honestly, I don't know the first thing about the intentions or business case for such a bird but the lessons of Concorde are pretty much commercial aerospace canon at this point so it would seem to me that heavy dose of skepticism is more than reasonable.

 I'd love to be wrong, but what makes anyone think this is a genuine effort to bring this craft into the market? As I said a few sentences ago, I'm very interested/hopeful for things like this, but count me as a non-believer in this press release, I believe it when they deliver some to a customer (USG doesn't count).


Concorde shows that there is a small market for fast first last travel across the Atlantic. About a half filled Concorde from London to New York per day.
Class of service split is very price elastic. The market was that size at the Concorde fare point. But many many Concordes worth of passengers cross that way every day. It's not clear that the market at, say 20% higher[1] than a base economy fare is sitll 1/2 a Concorde.

1 - this premium is not necessarily reasonable, it may be higher, but if you compare Concorde fares to base economy fares of the day it was more like a 5X premium or more, not a 1.2X premium....

I've just stumbled across this thread.
My recollection from when I read the Boeing press release and some articles was 2 concerns:
1) My recollection of the core of Concorde's economic problem was triggered when it was banned
    from flying supersonically over land. Thus limiting its possible routes to just a few.
    However, NASA has been working on eliminating sonic booms for many years and recently
    declared victory but the image I saw with the Boeing press release looked like it had not
    used any of the NASA work. So I'd expect it to be banned from supersonic flight overland.
    Thus seems unlikely to be economical.
2) My recollection of the trans-atlantic flight that I saw described at the time of the Boeing
    press release seemed to be Concorde performance [mach 2] not Mach 5 performance.

At this remove, I may be mis-remembering the Boeing press release or confusing an inaccurate
article with the press release.

Thanks

Carl


Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #181 on: 06/28/2018 01:40 PM »
This is more easily accessible article on the hypersonic airliner from Boeing than the AW one. It also has some different quotage.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-unveils-long-term-concept-for-hypersonic-airl-449749/

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #182 on: 06/28/2018 05:39 PM »
These kind of releases really irritate me -- Boeing offered nothing in terms of actual seating, range, how it would be powered, or even any kind of specific timeline.  All the release had was a render for something that will certainly change radically in the two decades of its development.

I suppose Boeing's marketing department should be congratulated for getting so much attention for one JPEG.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #183 on: 06/29/2018 07:14 AM »
These kind of releases really irritate me -- Boeing offered nothing in terms of actual seating, range, how it would be powered, or even any kind of specific timeline. 
All of which is "TBD"
Quote from: Tulse
All the release had was a render for something that will certainly change radically in the two decades of its development.

I suppose Boeing's marketing department should be congratulated for getting so much attention for one JPEG.
Indeed. This is corporate clickbait.  :(

OTOH Boeing's investment arm bought into Reaction Engines for (IIRC) about $20m.

That suggests (maybe) that after 6 decades of work having failed to develop an operational SCramjet powered system (be it missile, drone or crewed aircraft) some people might (just might) be considering alternatives that can be made to work in years (with adequate funding) rather than another couple of decades.
« Last Edit: 06/29/2018 07:15 AM by john smith 19 »
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #184 on: 06/30/2018 10:35 PM »
Navy

Lockheed Martin Corp., Lockheed Martin Space, Sunnyvale, California, is awarded an
$11,877,482 cost-plus-fixed-fee contract for Hypersonic Booster technology
development seeking to demonstrate technologies related to intermediate range
capability through booster design, fabrication and validation testing.  The work will be
performed in Sunnyvale, California (49.34 percent); Magna, Utah (34.16 percent); Elma,
New York (10.70 percent); Huntsville, Alabama (3.75 percent); and Mooresville, North
Carolina (2.05 percent), with an expected completion date of June 2019.  Fiscal 2018
research, development, test, and evaluation funds in the amount of $11,877,482 are
being obligated on this award, none of which will expire at the end of the current fiscal
year.  This contract was a competitive acquisition.  Strategic Systems Programs,
Washington, District of Columbia, is the contracting activity (N00030-18-C-0025).

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #185 on: 07/10/2018 07:45 PM »
http://aviationweek.com/future-aerospace/week-technology-july-9-13-2018

Quote
Lockheed Martin has secured another hypersonic weapon-related contract, with a $40.5 million U.S. Navy award for booster technology development. This follows the April award of a U.S. Air Force contract, potentially worth $928 million, to develop a hypersonic strike missile for fielding by 2022.

The latest Hypersonic Booster Technology Development (HBTD) contract, awarded by the Navy’s Strategic Systems Program, may be related to the Tactical Boost Glide (TBG) weapon that Lockheed’s Skunk Works is developing for DARPA. The air-launched, rocket-boosted missile demonstrator is scheduled to fly in 2019.

The request for proposals for HBTD refers to a “hypersonic glide body.” This sounds similar to TBG, which is a 500-nm-range unpowered glider accelerated to hypersonic speed by a rocket booster. DARPA’s fiscal 2019 budget request indicates the agency plans to develop a ship-launched version.

In addition to the TBG, the Skunk Works is under contract to develop DARPA’s Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC), an air-launched, scramjet-powered missile demonstrator also scheduled to fly in 2019. Raytheon is also under contract to build a HAWC demonstrator.
Lockheed’s April contract, meanwhile, covers development of the Hypersonic Conventional Strike Missile (HCSW, pronounced “Hacksaw”), a simpler air-launched, rocket-powered weapon intended for more rapid development to arm existing Air Force fighters and bombers.

Lockheed also is working on the Air-launched Rapid Response Weapon (ARRW, pronounced “Arrow”), a hypersonic boost-glide weapon being developed for the Air Force under an extension to the DARPA contract for TBG. ARRW and HAWC may be potential follow-ons to HCSW.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #186 on: 07/14/2018 08:47 AM »
http://aviationweek.com/future-aerospace/week-technology-july-9-13-2018

Quote
Lockheed Martin has secured another hypersonic weapon-related contract, with a $40.5 million U.S. Navy award for booster technology development. This follows the April award of a U.S. Air Force contract, potentially worth $928 million, to develop a hypersonic strike missile for fielding by 2022.

The latest Hypersonic Booster Technology Development (HBTD) contract, awarded by the Navy’s Strategic Systems Program, may be related to the Tactical Boost Glide (TBG) weapon that Lockheed’s Skunk Works is developing for DARPA. The air-launched, rocket-boosted missile demonstrator is scheduled to fly in 2019.

The request for proposals for HBTD refers to a “hypersonic glide body.” This sounds similar to TBG, which is a 500-nm-range unpowered glider accelerated to hypersonic speed by a rocket booster. DARPA’s fiscal 2019 budget request indicates the agency plans to develop a ship-launched version.

In addition to the TBG, the Skunk Works is under contract to develop DARPA’s Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC), an air-launched, scramjet-powered missile demonstrator also scheduled to fly in 2019. Raytheon is also under contract to build a HAWC demonstrator.
Lockheed’s April contract, meanwhile, covers development of the Hypersonic Conventional Strike Missile (HCSW, pronounced “Hacksaw”), a simpler air-launched, rocket-powered weapon intended for more rapid development to arm existing Air Force fighters and bombers.

Lockheed also is working on the Air-launched Rapid Response Weapon (ARRW, pronounced “Arrow”), a hypersonic boost-glide weapon being developed for the Air Force under an extension to the DARPA contract for TBG. ARRW and HAWC may be potential follow-ons to HCSW.
Nice to see the boost-glide concept back in fashion after about 7 decades.

If any of these actually fly my money would be on the boost-glide missiles, if only because it's (sort of) like artillery, and the USN has plenty of experience with artillery.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #187 on: 07/31/2018 05:55 PM »
The US Air Force’s top acquisition exec talks hypersonic prototypes and more

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/farnborough/2018/07/27/the-us-air-forces-top-acquisition-exec-talks-hypersonic-prototypes-and-more/

Quote
You mentioned hypersonics as another area that involves prototyping. Can you say more about that?

Hypersonics is an area that I’m very passionate about. I feel like we need to not fall behind any country in this domain. And it was an area, coming in from SCO, I really wanted to dive into these prototyping efforts and see is there anything that we can do to speed them up.

And in fact, there is. This is another example of another program where the rapid authorities appear to make a big difference on how quickly you can go. But the big difference is really shifting the program so that it embraces the potential for failure. You saw this a lot from me at my last job. Failure is very much an option, and as a matter of fact, if we’re going to fail and we do it early in a program, we’ve probably learned something valuable that we need to understand before progressing

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #188 on: 08/07/2018 07:46 PM »
Lockheed Martin claims both USAF hypersonic programmes

Quote
But a new document reveals that the USAF awarded a separate deal to Lockheed’s Missiles and Fire Control division in July 2017 to rapidly develop and field the Air-launched Rapid Response Weapon (ARRW, pronounced “Arrow”).

The ARRW, now assigned the designation AGM-183A, evolves from the Tactical Boost Glide (TBG) programme launched in 2014 by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). By using a rocket to boost the missile to very high altitudes, the unpowered ARRW then glides down to lower altitudes at speeds up to Mach 20.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lockheed-martin-claims-both-usaf-hypersonic-programm-450968/

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #189 on: 08/08/2018 06:30 AM »
Chinese waverider vehicle hits Mach 6

Quote
The test of the unmanned system, designated Starry Sky 2, took place recently in Northwestern China, reports the official China Daily newspaper.

During the flight the vehicle reached an altitude of 30km and undertook several maneuvers.

The wedge-shaped vehicle was initially lifted by a solid propellant rocket, before detaching and performing its flight. China Daily reports that the aircraft is a “waverider,” using its own shock waves to generate lift.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/chinese-waverider-vehicle-hits-mach-6-450926/

More info.

https://defense-update.com/20180807_xingkong.html
« Last Edit: 08/08/2018 07:05 AM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #190 on: 08/08/2018 07:08 AM »
Chinese waverider vehicle hits Mach 6

Quote
The test of the unmanned system, designated Starry Sky 2, took place recently in Northwestern China, reports the official China Daily newspaper.

During the flight the vehicle reached an altitude of 30km and undertook several maneuvers.

The wedge-shaped vehicle was initially lifted by a solid propellant rocket, before detaching and performing its flight. China Daily reports that the aircraft is a “waverider,” using its own shock waves to generate lift.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/chinese-waverider-vehicle-hits-mach-6-450926/

More info.

https://defense-update.com/20180807_xingkong.html
so it's a boost glide on an SRB, much like the RV on an ICBM, but not quite as fast.

IOW it could have been done anytime in the last 4 decades.  :(
« Last Edit: 08/08/2018 07:08 AM by john smith 19 »
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #191 on: 08/09/2018 06:51 AM »
Chinese waverider vehicle hits Mach 6

Quote
The test of the unmanned system, designated Starry Sky 2, took place recently in Northwestern China, reports the official China Daily newspaper.

During the flight the vehicle reached an altitude of 30km and undertook several maneuvers.

The wedge-shaped vehicle was initially lifted by a solid propellant rocket, before detaching and performing its flight. China Daily reports that the aircraft is a “waverider,” using its own shock waves to generate lift.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/chinese-waverider-vehicle-hits-mach-6-450926/

More info.

https://defense-update.com/20180807_xingkong.html
so it's a boost glide on an SRB, much like the RV on an ICBM, but not quite as fast.

IOW it could have been done anytime in the last 4 decades. 

John you might this of interest as this is the original SCMP article.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2158524/chinas-hypersonic-aircraft-starry-sky-2-could-be-used
« Last Edit: 08/09/2018 06:53 AM by Star One »

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #192 on: 08/22/2018 11:51 AM »
First U.S. Air Force Rapid Response Hypersonic Weapon: AGM-183A

Quote
As China announces tests of another hypersonic vehicle, the U.S. Air Force is revealing new details of its accelerating hypervelocity weapons development strategy as well as concepts for potential space-based surveillance systems to provide early warning. The Chinese vehicle, dubbed Starry Sky 2, was tested on Aug. 3 at Mach 5.5-6 at an altitude of 100,000 ft. Launched by rocket from the ground, and developed by the China Academy of Aerospace Aerodynamics, it is a waverider design that ...

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/first-us-air-force-rapid-response-hypersonic-weapon-agm-183a
« Last Edit: 08/22/2018 11:52 AM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #193 on: 10/11/2018 11:07 AM »
Sandia’s Swerve Could Lead To First-gen Hypersonic Production Line]http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/sandia-s-swerve-could-lead-first-gen-hypersonic-production-line]Sandia’s Swerve Could Lead To First-gen Hypersonic Production Line

Quote
The veil of secrecy has lifted over one of the Pentagon’s largest hypersonic weapons programs, revealing new details of a triservice rush to adapt a nearly 40-year-old experimental maneuvering reentry vehicle concept into an air-, sea- or land-launched common-boost-glide weapon. The revelations provide deeper insight into plans to unite three separate projects—the U.S. Army’s Advanced Hypersonic Weapon (AHW), the Air Force’s Hypersonic Conventional Strike Weapon ...

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #194 on: 10/11/2018 11:18 PM »
Is this the start of a US/China hypersonic arms race?
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

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