Author Topic: ESA leading us back to the Moon  (Read 73161 times)

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #180 on: 03/06/2018 07:22 pm »
The plan is now the Moon Village, a robotic infrastructure build-up, not an ESA human lunar lander as the older posts seemed to suggest.  There are follow-on plans along the lines of the Global Exploration Roadmap, including a sequence of human landings.  All this is being openly discussed and ideas developed, but people are still trying to figure out how to plan this as an international and part-commercial endeavour, probably around the Gateway or other lunar orbit infrastructure.  Don't look for hard plans yet, NASA's direction is still very uncertain and they are at the core of any international program.  But that doesn't mean nothing is happening or that nothing will happen. 

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #181 on: 03/06/2018 10:52 pm »
NASA want to start with robotic exploration missions using existing small commercial landers. This may build to robotic base for ISRU using larger cargo landers. The flight history from these landers can help with design of human lander. Maybe simple as adding cabin to flight proven cargo lander.

 This step by step approach should result in lower cost system. If ISRU works out then straight off crew lander only needs half DV if refuelling on surfacing.



Offline woods170

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #182 on: 03/07/2018 07:09 am »
It's been 3 years since this thread started.  Three years closer to shutting down aging ISS. Is there any even Powerpoint ESA plan for a lunar lander, etc.?

This.

This is exactly why I commented several years ago that ESA is NOT going to lead us back to the Moon. ESA doesn't lead in such HSF efforts. They tag along with others.
« Last Edit: 03/07/2018 07:09 am by woods170 »

Offline woods170

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #183 on: 03/07/2018 12:01 pm »
ESA, NASA, JAXA and Canda have been quietly working on lunar surface exploration architecture and here it is. Not funded, but without a detailed plan and cost estimate they can't ask governments for funding.

http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telecon/Whitley-Landgraf_9-20-17/

Here is brief summary.
2 x 2 man rovers on single lander (crew descent stage?). Nuclear and solar powered, designed for 42day missions. Left on surface with life of 5+ missions over few years.
1 x 4man lander. 2 stage, expendable methane descent stage, reusable ascent stage which uses storeable fuel. Typical flight 0.5days but can support crew for 3-4.

In emergency a rover can support 4 till they get back to lander.

Initial mission is 3 x SLS, 1x rovers, 1x crew lander 1 x Orion and crew.
Follow on missions are 1.5 SLS not very well explained but new descent stage, fuel for ascent stage plus surplus.

Allow for commercial partners especially cargo and fuel to DSG plus cargo landers.

Canada + ESA for rover development. ESA ascent stage, JAXA descent stage. NASA would most likely provide some help but lion share of development costs will be on 3 international partners.

I think it is good plan, with large chunk be reusable. Bang for bucks it is very good considering each mission results in 168 man days on surface. Still comes down to funding ($20B) which ESA may struggle with given their large input.

The brilliance behind this approach is that it build payloads for SLS.

Belated reply.

You are wrong IMO. It is the reason why it will fail.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #184 on: 01/21/2019 03:32 am »
Video from ESA talking about their future plans. ESA astronauts now expected to be on the Moon in the "2030s". There is also a plan to do a robotic polar sample return via the Gateway.

Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online ncb1397

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #185 on: 01/21/2019 08:04 am »
They also showed an interesting concept for a lunar lander in their ESA 2019 preview video. No commentary really, they just throw it in there at the end.



Looks like some kind of cargo carrier, similar to how they supported the ISS with cargo. It looks like an updated version of their older "lunar lander" proposal that never got full funding.
« Last Edit: 01/21/2019 08:05 am by ncb1397 »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #186 on: 01/21/2019 08:52 am »
Screen grab of lander. Can't see any reaction control system!
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline woods170

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #187 on: 01/21/2019 11:50 am »
Screen grab of lander. Can't see any reaction control system!
Notional powerpoint. Not an actual design.

Online ncb1397

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #188 on: 01/22/2019 06:19 am »
Screen grab of lander. Can't see any reaction control system!

I found more video of this lander dated about 4 years ago.



There appears to be 4 small thrusters on the top-deck which would at minimum provide pitch and yaw. The module on the top is a hab with an expandable section.

I just thought it was weird that it was in the 2019 preview. Everything else in that video is actual tangible hardware. There is also a reference to going farther than before(whatever that means) and that more will be talked about that in November.
« Last Edit: 01/22/2019 06:23 am by ncb1397 »

Offline philw1776

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #189 on: 01/26/2019 09:48 pm »
Screen grab of lander. Can't see any reaction control system!

I found more video of this lander dated about 4 years ago.



There appears to be 4 small thrusters on the top-deck which would at minimum provide pitch and yaw. The module on the top is a hab with an expandable section.

I just thought it was weird that it was in the 2019 preview. Everything else in that video is actual tangible hardware. There is also a reference to going farther than before(whatever that means) and that more will be talked about that in November.

Nice concepts. updated with the latest au courant technologies, 3-D printing, advanced robotics, etc.  i'd like to see something like this from ESA or somebody actually happen.

As someone whose actual job it was to propose R&D projects for funding and then run them I was (correctly) told that even a rudimentary PLAN required a comprehensive schedule overview, budget projections and summary level specifications.  "Plans" lacking these and more are simply concepts, made sexy by video and drawing technology.

Not hard to understand that with decades of "plans" like this from NASA and everyone else that we're nowhere near the moon for almost 50 years.
"It'll bang right out!"

Offline SciNews

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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #191 on: 01/30/2019 05:34 am »
The interesting bits.

ArianeGroup to study a Moon mission for ESA
https://www.safran-group.com/media/arianegroup-study-moon-mission-esa-20190122

"The European Space Agency (ESA) has just signed a one-year contract with ArianeGroup to study and prepare for a mission to go to the Moon with the aim of mining regolith."

"To carry out this study, ArianeGroup with Arianespace joined forces with a German start-up, PTScientists, which will provide the lunar lander, and a Belgian SME, Space Applications Services, which will provide the ground control facilities, the communications and the associated service operations."

Quote
OHB and IAI Team in Proposing Lunar Surface Access Service to the European Space Agency
https://www.ohb.de/en/news/2019/ohb-and-iai-team-in-proposing-lunar-surface-access-service-to-the-european-space-agency/

"OHB System AG, a leading German manufacturer of satellites and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), signed a teaming agreement today (Tuesday, 29.1.2019) at the Ilan Ramon Space Conference. Under the agreement, the companies will offer a commercial Lunar Surface Access Service (LSAS) for payloads up to 150 kg to the European Space Agency (ESA)."

"Under the agreement between the companies, OHB System AG, based on its long successful heritage in space missions, will act as prime contractor and will manage the work with ESA and the developers of scientific payloads for the lunar lander. IAI, for its part, shall provide a version of its lunar lander which was co-developed and built for SpaceIL; flight-ready and preparing to launch next month from the US."

"The OHB Group is also working with the American space company Blue Origin on lunar landing systems. Both companies signed a Letter of Intent at the International Space Congress IAC in Bremen in October 2018. The aim is to find out to what extent OHB and its subsidiary MT Aerospace can work together with Blue Origin across the Atlantic. The companies have joined forces for a future Blue Moon mission to the moon - Blue Moon is Blue Origin's lunar landing device that can carry several tons of cargo to the moon."

"In addition, the OHB Group is also working on the feasibility of a lunar orbital base as a starting point for astronautical missions to the Moon or Mars. The working title, according to Lunar Orbital Platform Gateway. OHB System AG was selected to participate in one of two parallel studies for the planning of the European module ESPRIT (European System Providing Refuelling, Infrastructure and Telecommunications)."
« Last Edit: 01/30/2019 05:35 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline SciNews

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #192 on: 02/04/2019 06:27 pm »
BBC Future - How easy will it be to build a Moon base?
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190201-how-easy-will-it-be-to-build-a-moon-base
Quote
With this endeavour in mind, several organisations – including Blue Origin, Airbus Defence and Space and Esa – recently helped set up a non-profit organisation called The Moon Race. This global competition is to encourage companies to develop technologies in the areas of manufacturing, energy production, resources (filling a bottle with lunar water) and biology (to sustain the first lunar greenhouse) and will officially launch in October 2019 at the International Astronautical Congress.
We will issue guidelines and rules within the next month,” says Germany-based Airbus space engineer and Moon Race co-founder, Pierre-Alexis Joumel. “The competition will last five years because the ambition of The Moon Race is to bring the best team’s idea up to the Moon’s surface.”

Online ncb1397

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #193 on: 02/07/2019 10:30 am »
Preparing for a lunar space walk:



CORE lunar habitat concept:

« Last Edit: 02/07/2019 10:56 am by ncb1397 »

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