Author Topic: Almost an ansible? entanglement without classical particles or EM Comms  (Read 47702 times)

Offline meberbs

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The speed limit of C is not an explicit requirement of quantum mechanics as I understand it, but it is a requirement that appears to be obeyed in experiment.
2 year old post, but to expand on this, straight quantum mechanics based on the Schrodinger equation is non-relativistic, and has no protections for the speed of light.

As I understand it, the Dirac Equation (relativistic extension of quantum mechanics) is properly relativistic with full compatibility with special relativity, and the speed limit of c in inherent in it.

Offline ppnl

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The speed limit of C is not an explicit requirement of quantum mechanics as I understand it, but it is a requirement that appears to be obeyed in experiment.
2 year old post, but to expand on this, straight quantum mechanics based on the Schrodinger equation is non-relativistic, and has no protections for the speed of light.

As I understand it, the Dirac Equation (relativistic extension of quantum mechanics) is properly relativistic with full compatibility with special relativity, and the speed limit of c in inherent in it.

It is true that simple QM has no protection for the speed of light. But in order to use quantum entanglement to pass information there has to be a real particle that travels the distance. Whatever limits the speed of that particle also limits the speed of the information transferred by quantum entanglement. That limit would be set by relativity.

And yes relativistic QM has that built in.

In any case the article clearly shows a time interval from t=0 to t=tau that it takes to transmit the signal. There is no reason to speculate about an ansible.

Online sghill

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The speed limit of C is not an explicit requirement of quantum mechanics as I understand it, but it is a requirement that appears to be obeyed in experiment.
2 year old post, but to expand on this, straight quantum mechanics based on the Schrodinger equation is non-relativistic, and has no protections for the speed of light.

As I understand it, the Dirac Equation (relativistic extension of quantum mechanics) is properly relativistic with full compatibility with special relativity, and the speed limit of c in inherent in it.

It is true that simple QM has no protection for the speed of light. But in order to use quantum entanglement to pass information there has to be a real particle that travels the distance. Whatever limits the speed of that particle also limits the speed of the information transferred by quantum entanglement. That limit would be set by relativity.

Yes. My limited understanding of entanglement is that you wind up with a Schrodinger's Cat situation until you transmit end-state information in real time back to the observer, which obviously removes the advantage of entanglement-enabled communications.
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Offline Stormbringer

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I think this is at least half an ansible since the two stations could possibly halve the time to communicate regardless of C. So half an ansible?  ;)
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline ppnl

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The speed limit of C is not an explicit requirement of quantum mechanics as I understand it, but it is a requirement that appears to be obeyed in experiment.
2 year old post, but to expand on this, straight quantum mechanics based on the Schrodinger equation is non-relativistic, and has no protections for the speed of light.

As I understand it, the Dirac Equation (relativistic extension of quantum mechanics) is properly relativistic with full compatibility with special relativity, and the speed limit of c in inherent in it.

It is true that simple QM has no protection for the speed of light. But in order to use quantum entanglement to pass information there has to be a real particle that travels the distance. Whatever limits the speed of that particle also limits the speed of the information transferred by quantum entanglement. That limit would be set by relativity.

Yes. My limited understanding of entanglement is that you wind up with a Schrodinger's Cat situation until you transmit end-state information in real time back to the observer, which obviously removes the advantage of entanglement-enabled communications.

No, the limit is still just the speed of light. Otherwise you could send messages back in time and in principle get replys before you send a message. There can be no speed advantage at all or you break physics.

Think of it this way. Say you split the message into two halves neither of which can be read without the other. If one half can only go at the speed of light then no matter how fast the other half can go the message itself is limited to the speed of light. This is what makes quantum mechanics a local theory rather than a nonlocal theory. It has some strange features for a local theory but it is still local. 

Offline dustinthewind

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I wanted to suggest Leonard Susskind's video ER=EPR from this forum discussion here, http://physicshelpforum.com/philosophy-physics/12217-does-qm-contradict-relativity.html
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ER%3DEPR




He links the concept of quantum entanglement to black holes which open the doors to a kind of a worm hole or Einstein–Rosen bridge.  It turns out quantum entangled particles may also be such a bridge on a micro scale.  It's kind of iffy because he is talking about pushing all that like charge into the form of a black hole (the wiki mentions charge trapped in a magnetic field) but what I came out of it with was that one black hole was anti matter entangled with the other which is matter. 

I was already questioning if anti-matter could be negative energy running backwards in time, making it appear as positive energy.  The reverse time stuff has connotations to Feynman's backward time propagators but in such a way as to mask their existence (we don't see the signal) but allow the universe to allow multiple possibilities (quantum) to exist simultaneously, till collapse, and instantly determine the results over any distance.  Maybe it could be thought of as a wormhole too. 

But then quantum entangled particles don't have to be matter and anti-matter. 

The black hole appeared to possibly have entangled space between them.  I attached an image of my speculation.  I was pondering what might happen if you create an e-p pair and annihilate the p with an e of another pair.  Would the remaining pair become entangled or would there be any teleportation?  Haven't watched the 2nd video yet. 
« Last Edit: 06/20/2018 12:22 am by dustinthewind »

Offline ppnl

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Well you really can't talk about matter black holes and antimatter black holes because black holes almost certainly violate baryon number. We don't have any black holes to play with but there are some very simple and very general arguments that make it extremely likely that black holes violate baryon number.

If ER = EPR is true then you can send a message to a distant black hole faster than light. But that message is stuck inside a black hole and you can't get it out.

If you let a positron and electron annihilate you would create a pair of photons. If you started with two entangled pairs you would still have four particles after the annihilation. What would be entangled? The simple answer is that the wave would collapse. The more complex answer is that the quantum information is spread over all four particles leading to decoherence. This kind of decoherence is how the macro world which appears to be classical is derived from the weird non-classical world of quantum mechanics.
« Last Edit: 06/24/2018 03:48 pm by ppnl »

Offline dustinthewind

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Had a moment of confusion.  It isn't anti-matter in its real state I think that provides reverse time communication but rather anti-matter in the vacuum state.  The annihilated form of it.  I think it may provide the reverse time communication to collapse states.  I think its that reverse time that provides the bridge that links quantum states. 

For instance light as a wave passes through two slits.  The wave pattern predicts the appearance of the photon but once the photon appears all the energy of the photon is concentrated at the point of absorption.  Its almost like the reverse time operator goes back in time and focuses the energy at that exact location.  Edit: the random distribution of photons by the waves state I believe is induced by the random thermal background of the vacuum superimposed over the waves state - this would be the hidden variable in a sense.

Creating electron-positron pairs in the vacuum in a quantum states of superposition.  Its like they were created out of the vacuum but the vacuum has not determined their exact orientation yet, upon interaction the vacuum uses the anti-matter in the vacuum state or the virtual stuff, to determine the final state of the other quantum entangled particle.  The wormhole bridge between the two. 

Tunneling for instance.  A particle bangs on a barrier and it has a vacuum wave associated with the particle so particle-wave hybrid.  Compound that the vacuum has inherent vacuum energy fluctuations if the particle's vacuum waves passes through the barrier then based on the quantum vacuum energy fluctuation there is a chance the far part of the wave will receive enough energy to re-create the particle on the other side of the barrier.  When the particle is created on the other side of the barrier it induces reverse time operators that annihilate the particles previous position via negative energy and the particle exists at its new position. 

I suspect that the nature of Quantum reality is fundamentally related to the vacuum and negative energy, reverse time operators.  Even Richard Feynman diagrams I have been told have reverse time operations. 

Causal pictures
The notion of going back in time is acausal, meaning it is excluded automatically in a Hamiltonian formulation. For this reason, it took a long time for this approach to be appreciated and accepted. Stueckelberg proposed this interpretation of antiparticles in the late 1930s, but Feynman's presentation made it stick.

In Feynman diagrams, the future is not determined from the past by stepping forward timestep by timestep, it is determined by tracing particle paths proper-time by proper-time. The diagram formalism therefore is philosophically very different from the Hamiltonian field theory formalism, so much so Feynman was somewhat disappointed that they were equivalent.

They are not as easily equivalent when you go to string theory, because string theory is an S-matrix theory formulated entirely in Feynman language, not in Hamiltonian language. The Hamiltonian formulation of strings requires a special slicing of space time, and even then, it is less clear and elegant than the Feynman formulation, which is just as acausal and strange. The strings backtrack in time just like particles do, since they reproduce point particles at infinite tension.

If you philosophically dislike acausal formalisms, you can say (in field theory) that the Hamiltonian formalism is fundamental, and that you believe in crossing and CPT, and then you don't have to talk about going back in time. Since crossing and CPT are the precise manifestations of the statement that antimatter is matter going back in time, you really aren't saying anything different, except philosophically. But the philosophy motivates crossing and CPT.

or

http://www.johnagowan.org/feynman.html

Another example is an electron in orbit around an atom.  As it falls in it encounters vacuum polarized electron positron pairs via the atoms electric field.  As it falls in it emits energy and it trapped around the atom in a wave state.  I think it exist mostly as a vacuum fluctuation.  The electron looks like a cloud because it is a cloud of vacuum fluctuation.  It isn't actually whizzing around the nucleus, but the vacuum wave is, so hence no radiation. 

Even radioactive decay.  If the distribution of proton and neutrons isn't right this may create points around the nucleus that have electric fields in excess increasing the chance via vacuum fluctuations of particle creation outside the nucleus?  Haven't really thought this last one through much but seems plausible. 

Continued:  Relativistic length contraction might be speculated to be a polarization wave in the vacuum where in front of a moving particle, negative energy particles that subtract time build up, while behind positive energy builds up adding time, causing relativistic time travel. 

General relativity might be speculated to be something similar, where matter polarizes the vacuum where negative energy reduces the local mass distributing it over space - a field.  the build up of negative energy near matter, causing lower altitude clocks to tick slower than those higher.  Possibly related to the nucleus of atoms polarizing the vacuum.
 
« Last Edit: 06/30/2018 03:32 pm by dustinthewind »

Offline Star-Drive

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Had a moment of confusion.  It isn't anti-matter in its real state I think that provides reverse time communication but rather anti-matter in the vacuum state.  The annihilated form of it.  I think it may provide the reverse time communication to collapse states.  I think its that reverse time that provides the bridge that links quantum states. 

For instance light as a wave passes through two slits.  The wave pattern predicts the appearance of the photon but once the photon appears all the energy of the photon is concentrated at the point of absorption.  Its almost like the reverse time operator goes back in time and focuses the energy at that exact location. 

Creating electron-positron pairs in the vacuum in a quantum states of superposition.  Its like they were created out of the vacuum but the vacuum has not determined their exact orientation yet, upon interaction the vacuum uses the anti-matter in the vacuum state or the virtual stuff, to determine the final state of the other quantum entangled particle.  The wormhole bridge between the two. 

Tunneling for instance.  A particle bangs on a barrier and it has a vacuum wave associated with the particle so particle-wave hybrid.  Compound that the vacuum has inherent vacuum energy fluctuations if the particle's vacuum waves passes through the barrier then based on the quantum vacuum energy fluctuation there is a chance the far part of the wave will receive enough energy to re-create the particle on the other side of the barrier.  When the particle is created on the other side of the barrier it induces reverse time operators that annihilate the particles previous position via negative energy and the particle exists at its new position. 

I suspect that the nature of Quantum reality is fundamentally related to the vacuum and negative energy, reverse time operators.  Even Richard Feynman diagrams I have been told have reverse time operations. 

Causal pictures
The notion of going back in time is acausal, meaning it is excluded automatically in a Hamiltonian formulation. For this reason, it took a long time for this approach to be appreciated and accepted. Stueckelberg proposed this interpretation of antiparticles in the late 1930s, but Feynman's presentation made it stick.

In Feynman diagrams, the future is not determined from the past by stepping forward timestep by timestep, it is determined by tracing particle paths proper-time by proper-time. The diagram formalism therefore is philosophically very different from the Hamiltonian field theory formalism, so much so Feynman was somewhat disappointed that they were equivalent.

They are not as easily equivalent when you go to string theory, because string theory is an S-matrix theory formulated entirely in Feynman language, not in Hamiltonian language. The Hamiltonian formulation of strings requires a special slicing of space time, and even then, it is less clear and elegant than the Feynman formulation, which is just as acausal and strange. The strings backtrack in time just like particles do, since they reproduce point particles at infinite tension.

If you philosophically dislike acausal formalisms, you can say (in field theory) that the Hamiltonian formalism is fundamental, and that you believe in crossing and CPT, and then you don't have to talk about going back in time. Since crossing and CPT are the precise manifestations of the statement that antimatter is matter going back in time, you really aren't saying anything different, except philosophically. But the philosophy motivates crossing and CPT.

or

http://www.johnagowan.org/feynman.html

Another example is an electron in orbit around an atom.  As it falls in it encounters vacuum polarized electron positron pairs via the atoms electric field.  As it falls in it emits energy and it trapped around the atom in a wave state.  I think it exist mostly as a vacuum fluctuation.  The electron looks like a cloud because it is a cloud of vacuum fluctuation.  It isn't actually whizzing around the nucleus, but the vacuum wave is, so hence no radiation. 

Even radioactive decay.  If the distribution of proton and neutrons isn't right this may create points around the nucleus that have electric fields in excess increasing the chance via vacuum fluctuations of particle creation outside the nucleus?  Haven't really thought this last one through much but seems plausible. 

Continued:  Relativistic length contraction might be speculated to be a polarization wave in the vacuum where in front of a moving particle, negative energy particles that subtract time build up, while behind positive energy builds up adding time, causing relativistic time travel. 

General relativity might be speculated to be something similar, where matter polarizes the vacuum where negative energy reduces the local mass distributing it over space - a field.  the build up of negative energy near matter, causing lower altitude clocks to tick slower than those higher.  Possibly related to the nucleus of atoms polarizing the vacuum.
 


All:

You might be interested on Dr. Harold (Sonny) Whites and his Eagleworks team's thoughts on this subject especially about what actually is going on when an electron is in orbit around a nucleus.
Star-Drive

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Had a moment of confusion.  It isn't anti-matter in its real state I think that provides reverse time communication but rather anti-matter in the vacuum state.  The annihilated form of it.  I think it may provide the reverse time communication to collapse states.  I think its that reverse time that provides the bridge that links quantum states.

None of that makes a lick of sense.  Just forming sentences out of terms from physics in a different order than others isn't new physics.

Offline dustinthewind

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Had a moment of confusion.  It isn't anti-matter in its real state I think that provides reverse time communication but rather anti-matter in the vacuum state.  The annihilated form of it.  I think it may provide the reverse time communication to collapse states.  I think its that reverse time that provides the bridge that links quantum states.

None of that makes a lick of sense.  Just forming sentences out of terms from physics in a different order than others isn't new physics.

Let us speculate.  Say we have two non antimatter ions Quantum entangled and then separated over a large distance.  If anti-matter was the reverse time operator there would be no anti-matter involved.  however, there is anti-matter involved in the vacuum and that antimatter is never truly annihilated.  It can never reach an absolute zero temperature so what made up e-p pairs still osculate in the vacuum.  So when one quantum entangled state collapses the other state instantly collapses via help from the vacuum.

It is the same with photons through the double slit experiment.  The photon wave passes through both slit and touches all points on the screen.  Even though the wave touches some points on the screen first rather than other points later.  At some point the vacuum wave associated with the photon and vacuum thermal fluctuations finds just the right frequency to be absorbed.  When it is absorbed the signal can propagate back in time and instantly cancel the wave (Collapse of the quantum wave function).   The energy is then concentrated at that exact point as a photon.

Also with quantum tunneling negative energy swallows the previous particles position.  If I remember correctly Quantum tunneling appears to be instantaneous.

Bold areas edited for clarity
« Last Edit: 07/07/2018 02:06 am by dustinthewind »

Offline meberbs

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Let us speculate.  Say we have two non antimatter ions Quantum entangled and then separated over a large distance.  If anti-matter was the reverse time operator there would be no anti-matter.  however, there is anti-matter in the vacuum and that antimatter is never truly annihilated because it can never reach an absolute zero temperature.  So when one state collapses the other state instantly collapses.

It is the same with photons through the double slit experiment.  The photon wave passes through both slit and touches all points on the screen.  Even though the wave touches some points on the screen first rather than other points later.  At some point the vacuum wave associated with the photon and vacuum thermal fluctuations finds just the right frequency to be absorbed.  When it is absorbed the signal can propagate back in time and instantly cancel the wave.   The energy is then concentrated at that exact point as a photon.

Also with quantum tunneling negative energy swallows the previous particles position.  If I remember correctly Quantum tunneling appears to be instantaneous.
Your sentences still don't mean anything. There are multiple problems, but one repeated problem is your use of the word "instantly/intantaneous." That word is literally undefined when talking about relativity (It can be defined, but not in an absolute sense like you are using it.) Also, other than containing the word "anti-matter" there seems to be no connection between any of the sentences in your first paragraph.

Offline dustinthewind

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Let us speculate.  Say we have two non antimatter ions Quantum entangled and then separated over a large distance.  If anti-matter was the reverse time operator there would be no anti-matter.  however, there is anti-matter in the vacuum and that antimatter is never truly annihilated because it can never reach an absolute zero temperature.  So when one state collapses the other state instantly collapses.

It is the same with photons through the double slit experiment.  The photon wave passes through both slit and touches all points on the screen.  Even though the wave touches some points on the screen first rather than other points later.  At some point the vacuum wave associated with the photon and vacuum thermal fluctuations finds just the right frequency to be absorbed.  When it is absorbed the signal can propagate back in time and instantly cancel the wave.   The energy is then concentrated at that exact point as a photon.

Also with quantum tunneling negative energy swallows the previous particles position.  If I remember correctly Quantum tunneling appears to be instantaneous.
Your sentences still don't mean anything. There are multiple problems, but one repeated problem is your use of the word "instantly/intantaneous." That word is literally undefined when talking about relativity (It can be defined, but not in an absolute sense like you are using it.) Also, other than containing the word "anti-matter" there seems to be no connection between any of the sentences in your first paragraph.

That is exactly why Einstein called it spooky action-at-a-distance. It was spooky because it was faster than light or instantaneous. 

einstein-spooky-action-starlight-quantum-entanglement

Hence, the negative energy Wheeler Feynman reverse time operators to allow such a thing to occur.  Possibly worm holes so to speak.
« Last Edit: 07/07/2018 01:58 am by dustinthewind »

Offline meberbs

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Let us speculate.  Say we have two non antimatter ions Quantum entangled and then separated over a large distance.  If anti-matter was the reverse time operator there would be no anti-matter.  however, there is anti-matter in the vacuum and that antimatter is never truly annihilated because it can never reach an absolute zero temperature.  So when one state collapses the other state instantly collapses.

It is the same with photons through the double slit experiment.  The photon wave passes through both slit and touches all points on the screen.  Even though the wave touches some points on the screen first rather than other points later.  At some point the vacuum wave associated with the photon and vacuum thermal fluctuations finds just the right frequency to be absorbed.  When it is absorbed the signal can propagate back in time and instantly cancel the wave.   The energy is then concentrated at that exact point as a photon.

Also with quantum tunneling negative energy swallows the previous particles position.  If I remember correctly Quantum tunneling appears to be instantaneous.
Your sentences still don't mean anything. There are multiple problems, but one repeated problem is your use of the word "instantly/intantaneous." That word is literally undefined when talking about relativity (It can be defined, but not in an absolute sense like you are using it.) Also, other than containing the word "anti-matter" there seems to be no connection between any of the sentences in your first paragraph.

That is exactly why Einstein called it spooky action-at-a-distance. It was spooky because it was faster than light or instantaneous. 
Faster than light is always instantaneous to somebody, time travel to somebody else, and normal flow of time to a third person. When you don't define who you are talking about, then descriptions like the one you provided lose all meaning.

Offline dustinthewind

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Had a moment of confusion.  It isn't anti-matter in its real state I think that provides reverse time communication but rather anti-matter in the vacuum state.  The annihilated form of it.  I think it may provide the reverse time communication to collapse states.  I think its that reverse time that provides the bridge that links quantum states. 

For instance light as a wave passes through two slits.  The wave pattern predicts the appearance of the photon but once the photon appears all the energy of the photon is concentrated at the point of absorption.  Its almost like the reverse time operator goes back in time and focuses the energy at that exact location. 

Creating electron-positron pairs in the vacuum in a quantum states of superposition.  Its like they were created out of the vacuum but the vacuum has not determined their exact orientation yet, upon interaction the vacuum uses the anti-matter in the vacuum state or the virtual stuff, to determine the final state of the other quantum entangled particle.  The wormhole bridge between the two. 

Tunneling for instance.  A particle bangs on a barrier and it has a vacuum wave associated with the particle so particle-wave hybrid.  Compound that the vacuum has inherent vacuum energy fluctuations if the particle's vacuum waves passes through the barrier then based on the quantum vacuum energy fluctuation there is a chance the far part of the wave will receive enough energy to re-create the particle on the other side of the barrier.  When the particle is created on the other side of the barrier it induces reverse time operators that annihilate the particles previous position via negative energy and the particle exists at its new position. 

I suspect that the nature of Quantum reality is fundamentally related to the vacuum and negative energy, reverse time operators.  Even Richard Feynman diagrams I have been told have reverse time operations. 

Causal pictures
The notion of going back in time is acausal, meaning it is excluded automatically in a Hamiltonian formulation. For this reason, it took a long time for this approach to be appreciated and accepted. Stueckelberg proposed this interpretation of antiparticles in the late 1930s, but Feynman's presentation made it stick.

In Feynman diagrams, the future is not determined from the past by stepping forward timestep by timestep, it is determined by tracing particle paths proper-time by proper-time. The diagram formalism therefore is philosophically very different from the Hamiltonian field theory formalism, so much so Feynman was somewhat disappointed that they were equivalent.

They are not as easily equivalent when you go to string theory, because string theory is an S-matrix theory formulated entirely in Feynman language, not in Hamiltonian language. The Hamiltonian formulation of strings requires a special slicing of space time, and even then, it is less clear and elegant than the Feynman formulation, which is just as acausal and strange. The strings backtrack in time just like particles do, since they reproduce point particles at infinite tension.

If you philosophically dislike acausal formalisms, you can say (in field theory) that the Hamiltonian formalism is fundamental, and that you believe in crossing and CPT, and then you don't have to talk about going back in time. Since crossing and CPT are the precise manifestations of the statement that antimatter is matter going back in time, you really aren't saying anything different, except philosophically. But the philosophy motivates crossing and CPT.

or

http://www.johnagowan.org/feynman.html

Another example is an electron in orbit around an atom.  As it falls in it encounters vacuum polarized electron positron pairs via the atoms electric field.  As it falls in it emits energy and it trapped around the atom in a wave state.  I think it exist mostly as a vacuum fluctuation.  The electron looks like a cloud because it is a cloud of vacuum fluctuation.  It isn't actually whizzing around the nucleus, but the vacuum wave is, so hence no radiation. 

Even radioactive decay.  If the distribution of proton and neutrons isn't right this may create points around the nucleus that have electric fields in excess increasing the chance via vacuum fluctuations of particle creation outside the nucleus?  Haven't really thought this last one through much but seems plausible. 

Continued:  Relativistic length contraction might be speculated to be a polarization wave in the vacuum where in front of a moving particle, negative energy particles that subtract time build up, while behind positive energy builds up adding time, causing relativistic time travel. 

General relativity might be speculated to be something similar, where matter polarizes the vacuum where negative energy reduces the local mass distributing it over space - a field.  the build up of negative energy near matter, causing lower altitude clocks to tick slower than those higher.  Possibly related to the nucleus of atoms polarizing the vacuum.
 


All:

You might be interested on Dr. Harold (Sonny) Whites and his Eagleworks team's thoughts on this subject especially about what actually is going on when an electron is in orbit around a nucleus.

I wanted to tell you thanks for sharing these papers.  I enjoyed the concept.  I wanted to suggest that they can possibly extend the concept further.  I think the reason superconductors super-conduct is because a group of atoms share a vacuum orbital across the entire material when cooled to a certain extent.  There is no resistance to current because of a similar reason why atoms don't emit light continuously while the electron is in stable orbit.  The electron being in a non-unique state in the vacuum with acoustic vibrations so to speak is also what I think is happening in superconductors. 

As a result the few electrons that are involved in superconducting appear to pair up - the same as what happens in electron orbitals. 
« Last Edit: 07/13/2018 01:58 pm by dustinthewind »

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