Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9 / Dragon 2 : SpX-DM1 : NET February 2019 : DISCUSSION  (Read 226867 times)

Offline anik

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So I would not trust this info for now

You can trust or not trust but it is a fact.

Offline woods170

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So I would not trust this info for now

You can trust or not trust but it is a fact.

Sort of. I'm hearing the same thing. And it was mentioned to me that there are multiple reasons for this delay, the government shutdown being one of 'em.

Offline RocketLover0119

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Was at KSC yesterday, but tour didn't go close to the pad due to the stupid government shutdown, still grabbed a pic of 39a from the apollo/Saturn V center

The TEL is no longer in the pad, so hopefully fit checks will occur later in the week, maybe next week.
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Offline deruch

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NASA personnel are not needed to conduct the test and they'd review the results from telemetry etc, which isn't going anywhere.

False. Range personnel and others for safety etc. are required.

Aren't Range personnel USAF?

Yes, Range is still USAF and DoD funding isn't impacted by the shutdown because they were covered in a separate bill that had already passed.  But the point isn't that SpaceX would have trouble actually launching.  It's that there is still NASA-side work/review for CCP that will need to happen before DM-1 launches.  These activities won't be covered under NASA's emergency operations allowances.  So, while NASA put out a statement regarding "time-critical activities including those related to future ISS crew rotation and resupply activities" continuing at full tempo, that was about actual resupply missions and actual crew rotation missions.  Not CCP development flights.  What they were really saying was, "The astronauts onboard the ISS aren't going to starve and the facility isn't going to fall out of the sky because the govt. is shutdown."  The fact that DM-1 scheduling will have an eventual knock-on effect to future crew rotations isn't enough to make it "time-critical".  Ergo, DM-1 will be impacted.
« Last Edit: 12/28/2018 02:24 pm by deruch »
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Offline mn

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NASA personnel are not needed to conduct the test and they'd review the results from telemetry etc, which isn't going anywhere.

False. Range personnel and others for safety etc. are required.

Aren't Range personnel USAF?

Yes, Range is still USAF and DoD funding isn't impacted by the shutdown because they were covered in a separate bill that had already passed.  But the point isn't that SpaceX would have trouble actually launching.  It's that there is still NASA-side work/review for CCP that will need to happen before DM-1 launches.  These activities won't be covered under NASA's emergency operations allowances.  So, while NASA put out a statement regarding "time-critical activities including those related to future ISS crew rotation and resupply activities" continuing at full tempo, that was about actual resupply missions and actual crew rotation missions.  Not CCP development flights.  What they were really saying was, "The astronauts onboard the ISS aren't going to starve and the facility isn't going to fall out of the sky because the govt. is shutdown."  The fact that DM-1 scheduling will have an eventual knock-on effect to future crew rotations isn't enough to make it "time-critical".  Ergo, DM-1 will be impacted.

What you are saying obviously makes sense and I agree with that.

But the government is under no obligation to make sense (if it did there wouldn't be a shutdown in the first place).

I suspect there's nothing stopping NASA from declaring DM-1 critical. (unless there's a specific lawmaker who wants DM-1 delayed and speaks up)

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Cross-post; same source that smoliarm quoted up-thread:
Dragon v2 - Late January:
https://ria.ru/20181228/1548854949.html
***

A separate, general observation from being an NSF reader :), working in the bowels of Trantor = Federal bureaucracy :(, and staying at a Holiday Inn Express ::).

It's not "political," so I don't perceive a need to state it in the "Policy" section.

Very little work gets done between Christmas and New Year's Day because a substantial portion of the civil service is out of the office, partial federal furlough or not.  We have THREE Federal Holidays in succession this year in the same 2-week pay period:
Monday, December 24 (by Presidential declaration)
Tuesday, December 25
Tuesday, January 1.

EDIT ADD: The furlough began on December 22, a Saturday.  The first 2 furlough days are a full weekend, and many "white collar" civil servants don't work weekends.

This is followed by a week of two consecutive holidays plus 3 days that a substantial portion of the civil service is on leave.

This is followed by another weekend, followed by a Monday that is often another day of leave, followed by a third holiday.

If the furlough extends into Wednesday, January 2 or beyond, then things may start to "stack up."
« Last Edit: 01/02/2019 01:00 am by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline deruch

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The fact that DM-1 scheduling will have an eventual knock-on effect to future crew rotations isn't enough to make it "time-critical".  Ergo, DM-1 will be impacted.
I suspect there's nothing stopping NASA from declaring DM-1 critical. (unless there's a specific lawmaker who wants DM-1 delayed and speaks up)

There is actually.  They have rules and policies in place for this sort of thing.  Not just NASA internal but the govt. in general does.  That's not to say that CCP couldn't apply for some sort of exemption or special circumstances permission.... But until they do so, DM-1 wouldn't qualify.  If they apply for something like that, it will be public.
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Offline mulp

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If NASA employees must work, they work without pay. Which has alwways been paid, whether they work or not.

Contract workers never get paid if time and materials, like janitors, maintenance contract workers. Thus they never work. Unless specifically contracted to work on an exception basis.

SpaceX, et al, are delivering on "fixed price" contracts where price and delivery date remain unchanged unless modified. Lack of NASA signoff due to no paid workers will justify contract modifications, but such changes can't be made because NASA workers aren't working,  and in fact ordered to not work.

Note, this is not unique to government, as i was a service tech trying to fix our vendor equipment problems for  F-100 corporations and had their grunts apologize for running out on me when they wanted to stay, because of manager orders, regarding overtime pay typically. In most cases the grunts would work without pay because i taught them as much as i could so they could fix problems themselves, etc.

I bet NASA employees involved with SpaceX would work "without pay" knowing they will be paid 99% certain, and Elon would direct any contractors get paid by SpaceX based on opportunity cost tradeoffs on his long term critical path, like freeing people for hopper tests in a year. But there are those who want disruption and pain, especially some factions in Congress to score political points. So, two weeks without funding could result in one week delay, or four weeks. Is SpaceX friend or foe? Pence visiting means friend?

Online IntoTheVoid

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Contract workers never get paid if time and materials, like janitors, maintenance contract workers. Thus they never work. Unless specifically contracted to work on an exception basis.

This is too simplistic and not particularly true. I worked for an Army support contractor on a T&M contract for 25+ years and we pretty much always worked through the shutdowns. If you have a contract, and there is money committed on the contract, and you have access to what you need, then you work. Our management, working with their gov't counterparts always ensured the conditions were met to keep working. (Sure that wasn't the case for the janitors, etc.) There are many different kinds of 'money' in the gov't, but generally 2018 money committed on a contract may be spent until the end of 2019. And since shutdowns and last second deals are nothing new, we almost always had money on contract to carry us through to at least the end of Jan.
Often times, if a shutdown appeared likely it would become hard to purchase items toward the end of the year because management (on contractor and gov't sides) was trying to hold every dollar in reserve for labor. No doubt there are many variations depending on types of money, perceived importance, aptitude of management, and relationship with one's gov't organization.

Offline kessdawg

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I bet NASA employees involved with SpaceX would work "without pay" knowing they will be paid 99% certain

Note that this is actually illegal if the NASA employees are furloughed.  As a federal employee myself, I'd love to just be working on my projects, but we legally can't even turn work laptops or phones on.

Offline cuddihy

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Not illegal, just against policy. You can do all the free clerical and thought work you want as long as you donít incur government commitment to pay you or someone else later for what you did.

And no one has ever been charged for working unpaid unless they were selling secrets or profiting someone other than the government by it.

So I think it is an urban legend.

Edit/Lar: Soften
« Last Edit: 12/31/2018 10:09 pm by Lar »

Offline kessdawg

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Not illegal, just against policy. You can do all the free clerical and thought work you want as long as you donít incur government commitment to pay you or someone else later for what you did.

And no one has ever been charged for working unpaid unless they were selling secrets or profiting someone other than the government by it.

So I think it is an urban legends.

I believe you are incorrect.

First, see the OPM FAQ on Government shutdown here.  Page 6 points you to "31 U.S. Code ß 1342 - Limitation on voluntary services"

Quote
An officer or employee of the United States Government or of the District of Columbia government may not accept voluntary services for either government or employ personal services exceeding that authorized by law except for emergencies involving the safety of human life or the protection of property.

If you'd like some history on why this prohibition on voluntary (yes, even "free clerical and thought") work exists, this excellent article from The Atlantic contains a history on the tug of war between the legislative and executive branches that brought us to it.

Edit/Lar:Soften
« Last Edit: 12/31/2018 10:25 pm by Lar »

Offline Zpoxy

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Not illegal, just against policy. You can do all the free clerical and thought work you want as long as you donít incur government commitment to pay you or someone else later for what you did.

And no one has ever been charged for working unpaid unless they were selling secrets or profiting someone other than the government by it.

So I think it is an urban legends.

I believe you are incorrect.

First, see the OPM FAQ on Government shutdown here.  Page 6 points you to "31 U.S. Code ß 1342 - Limitation on voluntary services"

Quote
An officer or employee of the United States Government or of the District of Columbia government may not accept voluntary services for either government or employ personal services exceeding that authorized by law except for emergencies involving the safety of human life or the protection of property.

If you'd like some history on why this prohibition on voluntary (yes, even "free clerical and thought") work exists, this excellent article from The Atlantic contains a history on the tug of war between the legislative and executive branches that brought us to it.

Edit/Lar:Soften

kessdawg you are correct. All of us at KSC received an email from Center Director Cabana reminding us that all NASA & Civil Service employees were forbidden to use any government devices (cell phones, laptops, etc) during a shutdown.

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Not illegal, just against policy. You can do all the free clerical and thought work you want as long as you donít incur government commitment to pay you or someone else later for what you did.

And no one has ever been charged for working unpaid unless they were selling secrets or profiting someone other than the government by it.

So I think it is an urban legends.

I believe you are incorrect.

First, see the OPM FAQ on Government shutdown here.  Page 6 points you to "31 U.S. Code ß 1342 - Limitation on voluntary services"

Quote
An officer or employee of the United States Government or of the District of Columbia government may not accept voluntary services for either government or employ personal services exceeding that authorized by law except for emergencies involving the safety of human life or the protection of property.

If you'd like some history on why this prohibition on voluntary (yes, even "free clerical and thought") work exists, this excellent article from The Atlantic contains a history on the tug of war between the legislative and executive branches that brought us to it.

Edit/Lar:Soften

kessdawg you are correct. All of us at KSC received an email from Center Director Cabana reminding us that all NASA & Civil Service employees were forbidden to use any government devices (cell phones, laptops, etc) during a shutdown.

We received such an e-mail at the Smithsonian and it was probably composed from the same base text.  Our furloughs would begin January 2--there were sufficient non-Federal FY2019 funds to "stay open" from December 22 through January 1.

During the furlough, we're locked out of our own (Federal) buildings. (There are exceptions for Smithsonian Protection Services officers and the like--"essential" personnel.)

And those rules apply for furloughed Federal AND (Smithsonian) Trust Fund employees.
« Last Edit: 01/01/2019 12:55 am by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline AC in NC

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Understand why we got here but this is off-topic (and worse not interesting).

Offline gongora

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No more offtopic discussion of what federal employees are allowed to do during the shutdown.  Especially, no more complaints from SpaceX fans that NASA employees should just ignore the regulations and go back to work because SpaceX fans want them to.

Offline joseph.a.navin

I have a question. Will the new flight crews starting with DM-2 utilize crew quarters like the shuttle and Apollo crews did before? Since NASA is paying for the flight and are in charge of flight planning I would suspect they would still use crew quarters.

Also, will SpaceX be using one of the old firing rooms for DM1 and beyond for LC-39A ops?

Offline russianhalo117

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I have a question. Will the new flight crews starting with DM-2 utilize crew quarters like the shuttle and Apollo crews did before? Since NASA is paying for the flight and are in charge of flight planning I would suspect they would still use crew quarters.

Also, will SpaceX be using one of the old firing rooms for DM1 and beyond for LC-39A ops?
Already answered previously. Yes and yes. LCC FR-4. FR-4 is nowadays known as CLCC and can operate upto 5 separate missions at a time. FR-4 serves as the Commercial Launch Control Center for all Commercial launches from 39A, 39B (if ever), 39C, and select CCAFS/SF pads. NASA and NGIS will use FR-1 through FR-3 for their ML based operations.
« Last Edit: 01/01/2019 11:40 pm by russianhalo117 »

Offline ChrisC

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will SpaceX be using one of the old firing rooms for DM1 and beyond for LC-39A ops?

Also Hans mentioned use of Firing Room 4 in the CRS-16 prelaunch briefing here:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46901.msg1883491#msg1883491

Here's the video.  I don't know when exactly Hans says it, but probably in the Q+A section at end, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was in response to a ChrisG question :)

https://youtube.com/watch?v=fNPkYbJj1R0
« Last Edit: 01/01/2019 10:42 pm by ChrisC »
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Offline kdhilliard

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Also Hans mentioned use of Firing Room 4 in the CRS-16 prelaunch briefing here: ...
It was in response to a question from Stephen Clark of Spaceflight Now at 24:05 in the video.

From theinternetftw's wonderful transcript:
Quote
Hans Koenigsmann, SpaceX: The Launch Control Formerly Known As Firing Room 4 has been used on I think our last mission here from the Cape. It was very successful. I personally enjoy the place. There's a great view of the pad when you launch from 39. We launch from 40 here and we're quite ready to use it, so we're not going to use it this time. Going forward, we will use Launch Control Formerly Known As Firing Room 4 more and more. It's a great place. Also closer to this room. So not for this time but going forward yes.

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