Author Topic: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities  (Read 185583 times)

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #300 on: 04/17/2016 07:33 PM »
Terraserver finally has a new image as of March 10.
The SpaceX logo looks a bit worn, right above the center.
Perfect!
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline Ohsin

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #301 on: 04/24/2016 02:18 AM »
"Well, three cheers to Sharma, but our real baby is INSAT."

Offline KSHavre

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #302 on: 04/28/2016 09:00 PM »
Or (hopefully) do send the barge, because the other two cores are landing at home.  ;D

There is no place to land two cores. And it does not look like SpaceX is builiding Landing Zone 2 - we have not seen any environmental studies yet.

There will be multiple pads at LZ1; see animation @ 2:00



Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #303 on: 04/28/2016 09:23 PM »
Or (hopefully) do send the barge, because the other two cores are landing at home.  ;D

There is no place to land two cores. And it does not look like SpaceX is builiding Landing Zone 2 - we have not seen any environmental studies yet.

There will be multiple pads at LZ1; see animation @ 2:00




Do we have a definitive answer or a way to get one? We have heard people say "the permits only allow one landing at a time" and other folk say "there's only one pad built" and still others say "the vid shows 5 pads and there is room in the site for them" ...
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline KSHavre

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #304 on: 04/28/2016 09:56 PM »

Do we have a definitive answer or a way to get one? We have heard people say "the permits only allow one landing at a time" and other folk say "there's only one pad built" and still others say "the vid shows 5 pads and there is room in the site for them" ...

edits -
On the previous page, the drawing from the engineering firm that installed the first shows shows the "contingency pads. IMHO the first landing was so dead on, they may not need more than 1 (either side of center...).

As for the permit; they must get it or an FH just is not (as) reusable...
« Last Edit: 04/28/2016 09:59 PM by KSHavre »

Offline sghill

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #305 on: 04/28/2016 10:22 PM »
Or (hopefully) do send the barge, because the other two cores are landing at home.  ;D

There is no place to land two cores. And it does not look like SpaceX is builiding Landing Zone 2 - we have not seen any environmental studies yet.

There will be multiple pads at LZ1; see animation @ 2:00




Do we have a definitive answer or a way to get one? We have heard people say "the permits only allow one landing at a time" and other folk say "there's only one pad built" and still others say "the vid shows 5 pads and there is room in the site for them" ...

We only know for sure that they have to get a new FONZI (or EIS) to land multiple cores. We suspect they will need a new permit, but honestly,  no one has ever shown any sort of "permit" paperwork for landing the first core...
« Last Edit: 04/28/2016 10:43 PM by sghill »
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Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #306 on: 04/29/2016 01:28 AM »
Or (hopefully) do send the barge, because the other two cores are landing at home.  ;D

There is no place to land two cores. And it does not look like SpaceX is builiding Landing Zone 2 - we have not seen any environmental studies yet.

There will be multiple pads at LZ1; see animation @ 2:00




Do we have a definitive answer or a way to get one? We have heard people say "the permits only allow one landing at a time" and other folk say "there's only one pad built" and still others say "the vid shows 5 pads and there is room in the site for them" ...
All of those are true.  What's unknown is how hard it is (or isn't) to update the EIS and build another pad.

Offline Retired Downrange

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #307 on: 04/29/2016 02:06 AM »
Given the accuracy demonstrated hitting the ASDS, and the Landing Zone 1 main pad is 282 feet (86 m) in diameter, I would guess they could land two on the main pad if needed. (With some increased risk of course.)

Offline sghill

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #308 on: 04/29/2016 11:32 AM »
Or (hopefully) do send the barge, because the other two cores are landing at home.  ;D

There is no place to land two cores. And it does not look like SpaceX is builiding Landing Zone 2 - we have not seen any environmental studies yet.

There will be multiple pads at LZ1; see animation @ 2:00




Do we have a definitive answer or a way to get one? We have heard people say "the permits only allow one landing at a time" and other folk say "there's only one pad built" and still others say "the vid shows 5 pads and there is room in the site for them" ...
All of those are true.  What's unknown is how hard it is (or isn't) to update the EIS and build another pad.

We have the mathematical expertise to work it out here. The EIS considered noise primarily and pollution secondarily. You can calculate the added noise of two, or three returning boosters instead of one. The original EIS used launch noise instead of landing noise as the criteria for landing engine noise approval- but now we have real data from a landing to use and double. 2 sonic booms simultaneously will be pretty loud, but none of this may be simple doubling except for the amount of liquids and gases in each returning booster.
« Last Edit: 04/29/2016 11:47 AM by sghill »
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Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #309 on: 04/29/2016 12:04 PM »
Quote
2 sonic booms simultaneously will be pretty loud,

Each stage will by itself produce 2 sonic booms (leading and trailing edges), and IIRC, someone reported actually hearing 3 sonic booms from the OG2 landing.

But I would guess SpaceX would stagger the booster landings slightly by varying the entry burn durations. So there is the potential for 6 sonic booms per pair of booster landings.  :o
« Last Edit: 04/29/2016 12:05 PM by Kabloona »

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #310 on: 04/29/2016 12:36 PM »

Each stage will by itself produce 2 sonic booms (leading and trailing edges), and IIRC, someone reported actually hearing 3 sonic booms from the OG2 landing.

I only heard one.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #311 on: 04/29/2016 12:40 PM »

Each stage will by itself produce 2 sonic booms (leading and trailing edges), and IIRC, someone reported actually hearing 3 sonic booms from the OG2 landing.

I only heard one.

My memory could be wrong, too. I am trying to find that post...and in any case, at supersonic speed of the booster, the shock waves are so close together that they arrive at the ear almost simultaneously.

But in any case, more than one sonic boom probably not going to be an environmental problem for booster landings...
« Last Edit: 04/29/2016 12:52 PM by Kabloona »

Offline MarekCyzio

Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #312 on: 04/29/2016 12:48 PM »
All of those are true.  What's unknown is how hard it is (or isn't) to update the EIS and build another pad.

So I was at LZ-1 last weekend. There were no signs of any activity to build additional pads. Moreover:
- building pad #1 from that diagram would require pretty massive work - new crane path, weather station moved, clearing of vegetation (and you cannot touch them during Scrub Jay nesting season = until June 30)
- pad #2 would be easier, but Scrub Jay again
- pad #3 looks like easiest to build as terrain is already cleared, but may need removal of old concrete from original launch pad
- pad #4 is touching current exposed water lines - SpaceX may need to bury them.
- pads #3 and #4 are uncomfortably close to Landing Operations Control
   

Offline Orbiter

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #313 on: 04/29/2016 12:51 PM »
Any reason to believe that SpaceX just wouldn't use another old Atlas pad or two? LC-12 and LC-11, for example.
« Last Edit: 04/29/2016 12:52 PM by Orbiter »
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Offline MarekCyzio

Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #314 on: 04/29/2016 12:54 PM »
Any reason to believe that SpaceX just wouldn't use another old Atlas pad or two? LC-12 and LC-11, for example.

Environmental Impact Study. Only LC-13 EIS was completed. And LZ-1 is designed to have 5 pads = more than enough for Falcon Heavy launches.
« Last Edit: 04/29/2016 12:54 PM by MarekCyzio »

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #315 on: 04/29/2016 01:58 PM »

Each stage will by itself produce 2 sonic booms (leading and trailing edges), and IIRC, someone reported actually hearing 3 sonic booms from the OG2 landing.

I only heard one.

My memory could be wrong, too. I am trying to find that post...and in any case, at supersonic speed of the booster, the shock waves are so close together that they arrive at the ear almost simultaneously.

But in any case, more than one sonic boom probably not going to be an environmental problem for booster landings...

I seem to recall someone posting about three as well but it was an isolated report. It passes the plausibility sniff-test (leading edge of the blunt "bubble" at the base of the stage, grid fins, trailing edge of the rocket body) but as you say, at the speeds and angles involved, it might only give one audible boom at any particular location.
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Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #316 on: 04/29/2016 02:17 PM »
MarekCyzio gave a good reason why we might not see any activity until June 30 even if another pad is in the works.

Offline sghill

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #317 on: 04/30/2016 05:42 PM »

Each stage will by itself produce 2 sonic booms (leading and trailing edges), and IIRC, someone reported actually hearing 3 sonic booms from the OG2 landing.

I only heard one.

My memory could be wrong, too. I am trying to find that post...and in any case, at supersonic speed of the booster, the shock waves are so close together that they arrive at the ear almost simultaneously.

But in any case, more than one sonic boom probably not going to be an environmental problem for booster landings...

I seem to recall someone posting about three as well but it was an isolated report. It passes the plausibility sniff-test (leading edge of the blunt "bubble" at the base of the stage, grid fins, trailing edge of the rocket body) but as you say, at the speeds and angles involved, it might only give one audible boom at any particular location.

Here's a video from Cocoa Beach with three booms at the very end of the LZ-1 landing.  Got to the end, it's very clear.


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Offline mme

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #318 on: 04/30/2016 06:11 PM »
Or (hopefully) do send the barge, because the other two cores are landing at home.  ;D

There is no place to land two cores. And it does not look like SpaceX is builiding Landing Zone 2 - we have not seen any environmental studies yet.

There will be multiple pads at LZ1; see animation @ 2:00

...

Do we have a definitive answer or a way to get one? We have heard people say "the permits only allow one landing at a time" and other folk say "there's only one pad built" and still others say "the vid shows 5 pads and there is room in the site for them" ...

We only know for sure that they have to get a new FONZI (or EIS) to land multiple cores. We suspect they will need a new permit, but honestly,  no one has ever shown any sort of "permit" paperwork for landing the first core...

I agree "we don't know."   I feel like this is a repeat of the old "the range/the FAA will never let SpaceX land a booster at the Cape."  I don't know if they'll be ready by FH debut, but I don't think that the EIS will be a show stopper.  If other government online docs are an example there can be quite the lag before updated documents are published.  Or there is some other document we aren't aware of, etc.

We know Musk is going to try though:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/726301598398312448
Quote
Danny S. Parker ‏@dannysparker  15h15 hours ago
@elonmusk For 1st launch of Falcon Hvy will there be effort to simultaneously land all 3 booster stages?  #FalconHeavy
Quote
Elon MuskVerified account
‏@elonmusk
@dannysparker yes
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline rocx

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #319 on: 04/30/2016 06:35 PM »
We know Musk is going to try though:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/726301598398312448
Quote
Danny S. Parker ‏@dannysparker  15h15 hours ago
@elonmusk For 1st launch of Falcon Hvy will there be effort to simultaneously land all 3 booster stages?  #FalconHeavy
Quote
Elon MuskVerified account
‏@elonmusk
@dannysparker yes


They did not say where they would land. But either an extra ASDS is needed in the Atlantic or a second booster landing must be allowed at the cape, if three first stages are to land from one launch. My guess is two to LZ-1 and one to OCISLY.
Any day with a rocket landing is a fantastic day.

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