Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2  (Read 2398276 times)

Online ugordan

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #660 on: 01/06/2015 02:04 PM »
I find the lawyerly nitpicking of this to be very revealing.

Here, knock yourself out.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34502.msg1184684#msg1184684

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #661 on: 01/06/2015 02:09 PM »
I find the lawyerly nitpicking of this to be very revealing.

So is seeing little painted men on rockets
« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 02:11 PM by Jim »

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« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 02:17 PM by cscott »

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #663 on: 01/06/2015 02:26 PM »
So let the ASDS speculation begin:  what will the ASDS do in the meantime?  and will the GoQuest and Elsbeth III crews host a tailgate party on the barge during the downtime?  ;D

Not enougn time to head into port and get back on station by Friday morning. So they hold position and try to conserve fuel. Maybe the tug hooks back onto ASDS so the barge doesn't have to burn 3 days worth of stationkeeping fuel.

Meanwhile, a street hockey game breaks out on deck.
« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 02:28 PM by Kabloona »

Offline llanitedave

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #664 on: 01/06/2015 02:51 PM »
I find the lawyerly nitpicking of this to be very revealing.

Yeah, reality is so unappreciative of your "significant information", isn't it?
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Offline robertross

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #665 on: 01/06/2015 02:55 PM »
So let the ASDS speculation begin:  what will the ASDS do in the meantime?  and will the GoQuest and Elsbeth III crews host a tailgate party on the barge during the downtime?  ;D

Not enougn time to head into port and get back on station by Friday morning. So they hold position and try to conserve fuel. Maybe the tug hooks back onto ASDS so the barge doesn't have to burn 3 days worth of stationkeeping fuel.

Meanwhile, a street hockey game breaks out on deck.

I wonder if they could position new fuel containers on deck? (likely using a helicopter)
It would likely require calm seas however.
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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #667 on: 01/06/2015 03:12 PM »
Whoever did that schedule got some of the terminology different.  What we tend to call the reentry burn is here called the landing burn.
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Offline Llian Rhydderch

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #668 on: 01/06/2015 03:16 PM »
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6ph-aTCYAA9UNH.png:large

Don't know how accurate this is...
Here is the timed schedule.

Phil, what was the source for that timing table?  I don't see it at the link QuantumG left.

Was it SpaceX info?  Or info assimilated and published by someone else?  The latter might still be correct depending on their sources, but it will figure into the weight we attach to the numbers.
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Offline Doesitfloat

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #669 on: 01/06/2015 03:37 PM »
So let the ASDS speculation begin:  what will the ASDS do in the meantime?  and will the GoQuest and Elsbeth III crews host a tailgate party on the barge during the downtime?  ;D

Not enougn time to head into port and get back on station by Friday morning. So they hold position and try to conserve fuel. Maybe the tug hooks back onto ASDS so the barge doesn't have to burn 3 days worth of stationkeeping fuel.




Meanwhile, a street hockey game breaks out on deck.

I wonder if they could position new fuel containers on deck? (likely using a helicopter)
It would likely require calm seas however.

You want to turn lots of fuel into smoke.
Tie the tug to the barge. Float... Call upon King Neptune for entertainment.
On Thursday, Fire up the tug and drive to landing location.

Much less fuel than station keeping for 3 days.

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #670 on: 01/06/2015 05:57 PM »
bad weather in the landing zone was a risk that SpaceX bore and that it would be likely that they'd need to launch a customer's freight even if there was no chance of recovery.  Not so, at least on this NASA launch.  SpaceX seems to have gotten agreement to not launch if waves are beyond 6 feet in the LZ.
Nope. They still launched rockets even when this criteria was NO GO/EXCEED (it is NOT first time this row in table was present). No one will hold up launch for that reason. If landing is NO GO, they launch anyway and stage will be disposed to not endanger barge. Or perform practice "landing" somewhere far away from barge.

Well we don't know that either.  In previous flight they launches with high waves, but there was no barge, so the stage would have been dipped anyway. Maybe THAT is why they ignored the rule.  But we do know that a rule for wave height at the LZ was set up.

So it remains to be seen, it is still an open question.  I'm leaning towards thinking that if they put the rule up, then there's a reason they did so.
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Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #671 on: 01/06/2015 06:11 PM »

So it remains to be seen, it is still an open question.  I'm leaning towards thinking that if they put the rule up, then there's a reason they did so.

No, it isn't an open question.  Spacex isn't going to affect the ISS schedule by delaying when the launch weather is good and the sea state is bad.   There is a whole lot of impacts in rescheduling a visiting vehicle.  Spacex is on contract to deliver cargo to the ISS.  Stage recovery is secondary.

The likely reason that this "new" rule is there, is to get the range use to accessing and reporting it.
« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 06:21 PM by Jim »

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #672 on: 01/06/2015 06:35 PM »

So it remains to be seen, it is still an open question.  I'm leaning towards thinking that if they put the rule up, then there's a reason they did so.

No, it isn't an open question.  Spacex isn't going to affect the ISS schedule by delaying when the launch weather is good and the sea state is bad.   There is a whole lot of impacts in rescheduling a visiting vehicle.  Spacex is on contract to deliver cargo to the ISS.  Stage recovery is secondary.

The likely reason that this "new" rule is there, is to get the range use to accessing and reporting it.

I understand the impact of a launch delay, but also the impact of losing a reusable stage, and so it is up to SpaceX to negotiate that with each customer, whether NASA or commercial.

This is very much like "will NASA (or customers) revolt at SpaceX for putting legs and other reusability hardware on their launches".  You were all up in arms about it, but it ended up that logic prevailed, and reasonable parties arrived at reasonable understandings.

If delays were an otherwise unheard of phenomena, then maybe. But since delays are common part of scheduling anyway, I can see it going both ways.

Here's another consideration: Are there any count-down tests that have to do with reusability hardware?  Suppose there's an under-pressure detected in a reservoir that services the legs?  Or maybe an over-current detected in a circuit that has to do with re-ignition.  Will the count-down be aborted?  Is that in any of the contracts?

It's a circumstance that will happen sooner or later, and then we'll see how it plays out.  I'd like to think that it's in the contracts, or at least has been discussed and agreed upon.
« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 06:53 PM by meekGee »
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Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #673 on: 01/06/2015 06:58 PM »

 but also the impact of losing a reusable stage,

Those don't exist at this time and so there is no loss.  Even if it is recovered it is not a reusable stage. 

« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 06:58 PM by Jim »

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #674 on: 01/06/2015 07:01 PM »

This is very much like "will NASA (or customers) revolt at SpaceX for putting legs and other reusability hardware on their launches".  You were all up in arms about it, but it ended up that logic prevailed, and reasonable parties arrived at reasonable understandings.


That still is applicable.  Logic is prevailing and some missions won't have legs even if there is excess performance.  CRS is not a NASA launch.
« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 07:01 PM by Jim »

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #675 on: 01/06/2015 07:07 PM »

 but also the impact of losing a reusable stage,

Those don't exist at this time and so there is no loss.  Even if it is recovered it is not a reusable stage.

That's nit-picking. And to say "there is no loss" when describing the first ever propulsively recovered stage, which is a gateway to reusability, is being willfully ignorant.

So instead, "the loss of a stage that could have been recovered", and thus has value for SpaceX (And by proxy, to NASA as well, and to customers, since everyone wants reuse to work.)

A delay to ISS scheduling is not the end of the world, it is simply an inconvenience for NASA and a whole bunch of other people.  It happens anyway due to many reasons. OTOH, a loss of a stage that contains valuable data is a bummer for SpaceX.  And also not the end of the world, since there will be others.

So both parties can sit around the table and arrive at some understanding, and if cooler heads prevail, then an agreement will be reached that does not starve ISS for trivial reasons, but also does not lose a stage over a scheduling inconvenience that can occur anyway.

Same as has happened before with carrying reusability hardware on F9.1

I hope this is what happened on this topic as well.
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Offline MP99


So it remains to be seen, it is still an open question.  I'm leaning towards thinking that if they put the rule up, then there's a reason they did so.

No, it isn't an open question.  Spacex isn't going to affect the ISS schedule by delaying when the launch weather is good and the sea state is bad.   There is a whole lot of impacts in rescheduling a visiting vehicle.  Spacex is on contract to deliver cargo to the ISS.  Stage recovery is secondary.

The likely reason that this "new" rule is there, is to get the range use to accessing and reporting it.

I understand the impact of a launch delay, but also the impact of losing a reusable stage, and so it is up to SpaceX to negotiate that with each customer, whether NASA or commercial.

If SpaceX negotiates a lower price for a launch in return for recovering the hardware, then it would be reasonable to delay if the sea state makes recovery impossible.

If SpaceX are charging full price (IE expendable) rates for the launch, then it would be perfectly reasonable for the customer to request / insist that this not delay an otherwise viable launch.

cheers, Martin

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #677 on: 01/06/2015 07:15 PM »

A delay to ISS scheduling is not the end of the world, it is simply an inconvenience for NASA and a whole bunch of other people.  It happens anyway due to many reasons. OTOH, a loss of a stage that contains valuable data is a bummer for SpaceX.


It is not an inconvenience, it is a large cost to NASA and its partners and if it can be avoided it will.   Just because a delay "can" happen doesn't mean it should.  Spacex can test its stages on its own dime and not wasting NASA's.
« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 07:17 PM by Jim »

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #678 on: 01/06/2015 07:17 PM »

So it remains to be seen, it is still an open question.  I'm leaning towards thinking that if they put the rule up, then there's a reason they did so.

No, it isn't an open question.  Spacex isn't going to affect the ISS schedule by delaying when the launch weather is good and the sea state is bad.   There is a whole lot of impacts in rescheduling a visiting vehicle.  Spacex is on contract to deliver cargo to the ISS.  Stage recovery is secondary.

The likely reason that this "new" rule is there, is to get the range use to accessing and reporting it.

I understand the impact of a launch delay, but also the impact of losing a reusable stage, and so it is up to SpaceX to negotiate that with each customer, whether NASA or commercial.

If SpaceX negotiates a lower price for a launch in return for recovering the hardware, then it would be reasonable to delay if the sea state makes recovery impossible.

If SpaceX are charging full price (IE expendable) rates for the launch, then it would be perfectly reasonable for the customer to request / insist that this not delay an otherwise viable launch.

cheers, Martin

Yup, and there are also some shades of gray in between... 

There are often other things that can be put on the table, other services, extra this and extra that.  If there's good will, there's a way to resolve this.  If the sides get barricaded, then there's plenty other things they can fight over...

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #679 on: 01/06/2015 07:19 PM »
um, stay on topic guys...
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