Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2  (Read 2415029 times)

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #320 on: 12/31/2014 07:02 PM »

Approximately zero ports east of CCAFS.

Not saying it isn't the case that they'll move on, I just think that your argument is full of water.



Well, you thought wrong and it is your argument that is all wet.  There is a port at CCAFS, which would be more accessible and more practical for those launches vs Jax.

Need I remind you that SpaceX has a habit of doing things NOT always the way you expect them to do? Need I remind you of the fact that SpaceX often deviates from what you think is the most logical course of actions?
You seem to be forgetting that your frame of reference for anticipating actions from aerospace companies is not entirely applicable to SpaceX. Your frame of reference has been shaped in the past decades by working for aerospace companies with a somewhat traditional/conservative way of doing things. Events in recent years have shown that SpaceX very much does not work in a traditional/conservative way.

Offline rcoppola

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #321 on: 12/31/2014 07:41 PM »

Approximately zero ports east of CCAFS.

Not saying it isn't the case that they'll move on, I just think that your argument is full of water.



Well, you thought wrong and it is your argument that is all wet.  There is a port at CCAFS, which would be more accessible and more practical for those launches vs Jax.

Need I remind you that SpaceX has a habit of doing things NOT always the way you expect them to do? Need I remind you of the fact that SpaceX often deviates from what you think is the most logical course of actions?
You seem to be forgetting that your frame of reference for anticipating actions from aerospace companies is not entirely applicable to SpaceX. Your frame of reference has been shaped in the past decades by working for aerospace companies with a somewhat traditional/conservative way of doing things. Events in recent years have shown that SpaceX very much does not work in a traditional/conservative way.
Well, in all fairness if you go back a few pages, you'll read Jim clearly acknowledge that SpaceX plans for many eventualities and has no problem altering course and/or using then abandoning infrastructure/plans as needed.
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Offline Roy_H

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #322 on: 01/01/2015 12:57 AM »

Approximately zero ports east of CCAFS.

Not saying it isn't the case that they'll move on, I just think that your argument is full of water.



Well, you thought wrong and it is your argument that is all wet.  There is a port at CCAFS, which would be more accessible and more practical for those launches vs Jax.

Need I remind you that SpaceX has a habit of doing things NOT always the way you expect them to do? Need I remind you of the fact that SpaceX often deviates from what you think is the most logical course of actions?
You seem to be forgetting that your frame of reference for anticipating actions from aerospace companies is not entirely applicable to SpaceX. Your frame of reference has been shaped in the past decades by working for aerospace companies with a somewhat traditional/conservative way of doing things. Events in recent years have shown that SpaceX very much does not work in a traditional/conservative way.
Well, in all fairness if you go back a few pages, you'll read Jim clearly acknowledge that SpaceX plans for many eventualities and has no problem altering course and/or using then abandoning infrastructure/plans as needed.

Gawd, I hate this bickering. I side 100% with Jim's statements as they are very logical. Those disagreeing are illogical, or at least haven't presented clearness for their positions.
Yes, Jacksonville is best suitable for ISS flights. So how many flights do you expect in 2015 to have legs? I could say with confidence that all ISS flights will have legs, and first stage recovery will be attempted. Most customers will regard the legs as a liability and until well proven would not allow them to be on their mission. Those early flights would have been sold as not having legs, and approval to add legs must come from the customer. If required SpaceX will have the same set-up at Canaveral where they can tie the barge up.
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Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #323 on: 01/01/2015 02:47 AM »
Most customers will regard the legs as a liability and until well proven would not allow them to be on their mission. Those early flights would have been sold as not having legs, and approval to add legs must come from the customer. If required SpaceX will have the same set-up at Canaveral where they can tie the barge up.

There's no evidence for any of that.  As far as we know, SpaceX doesn't give customers the option of legs or no legs, they just always put legs on unless the payload is so close to the edge of what F9 can do that they need to leave them off.

Offline sghill

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #324 on: 01/01/2015 12:44 PM »
Maybe SpaceX being right next to the Carnival dock was a deliberate PR move, because if they have a stage mounted there for a few days they will get a horde of tweets from the passengers.

They would have gotten more from bringing it into Port Canaveral.

IMHO, JAX port was cheaper, quieter, and likely had more land next to the dock space  available for them to  do the prep work we're seeing. Also as I've stated before, it's hours shorter drive from JAX Port to head west with the loaded up trailer so they can tear the first returned booster down in CA once they get it back.
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Offline PhilW

This is a fun thread...  Almost makes me happy the launch was postponed... 

And I wonder what SpaceX folks are calling the barge.  I don't think it is called "the barge" internally.
Is called "#BargeX" on Twitter.

Offline PhilW

Maybe SpaceX being right next to the Carnival dock was a deliberate PR move, because if they have a stage mounted there for a few days they will get a horde of tweets from the passengers. And if putting in these mounts is easy enough, and they can get port space for not too much a month, they'll do this at several ports. Back at Canaveral, sure. And maybe PR and who knows where else.
Suggest when Elon stands in front of the landed F9, mounted on those stands, and does the press conference, the photos & Tweets will be massive.

Offline MTom

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #327 on: 01/01/2015 06:33 PM »
Good find. Nice detail.

Any idea what the white/alum jig is for?

It should be for alignment of the hold points; hold points at the four corners of the square frame

IMHO this is a crane traverse for the first stage itself.

Offline Roy_H

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #328 on: 01/01/2015 06:38 PM »
Most customers will regard the legs as a liability and until well proven would not allow them to be on their mission. Those early flights would have been sold as not having legs, and approval to add legs must come from the customer. If required SpaceX will have the same set-up at Canaveral where they can tie the barge up.

There's no evidence for any of that.  As far as we know, SpaceX doesn't give customers the option of legs or no legs, they just always put legs on unless the payload is so close to the edge of what F9 can do that they need to leave them off.

Well, I couldn't find the quote, but I do remember Elon saying that after flying with legs on the rocket, that he felt confident most future customers would be more willing to allow legs on their flights. What makes you think that the customer has no say in this matter? If you buy a car and it has optional GPS display does the manufacture force you to buy it? Where is your proof that customers have no say.
"If we don't achieve re-usability, I will consider SpaceX to be a failure." - Elon Musk

Offline rokan2003

Incorrect analogy. Customers buy transportation services, not rockets. If you hire a truck to take a container from point A to point B, do you typically have a say over the exact configuration of the truck? A customer could of course write 'no legs' into the launch contract when it's negotiated, but that would be unusual.

Online cambrianera

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #330 on: 01/01/2015 08:27 PM »
Good find. Nice detail.

Any idea what the white/alum jig is for?

It should be for alignment of the hold points; hold points at the four corners of the square frame

IMHO this is a crane traverse for the first stage itself.
You don't need a traverse for the stage if the stage isn't there.
On the other side what's a better way to be sure you have fixed your supports with the right distance other than joining them with a jig?

Well, only five days missing to see unloading of the barge and be sure of it (hopefully  ;D )
Oh to be young again. . .

Offline rpapo

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #331 on: 01/01/2015 09:29 PM »
Well, only five days missing to see unloading of the barge and be sure of it (hopefully  ;D )
Even if the stage lands on the barge about 6:30am EST on January 6th, I think it unlikely we will see the stage on the Carnival-Cam for another day or two after that.  Providing it lands on target.  Providing it doesn't tip over before they can secure it.

Which begs another question: will they secure the stage precisely where it lands, or will they try to center it on the barge before securing the legs firmly?  Do they care?
An Apollo fanboy . . . fifty years ago.

Offline deruch

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #332 on: 01/01/2015 09:52 PM »
Well, only five days missing to see unloading of the barge and be sure of it (hopefully  ;D )
Even if the stage lands on the barge about 6:30am EST on January 6th, I think it unlikely we will see the stage on the Carnival-Cam for another day or two after that.  Providing it lands on target.  Providing it doesn't tip over before they can secure it.

Which begs another question: will they secure the stage precisely where it lands, or will they try to center it on the barge before securing the legs firmly?  Do they care?

If they were only going to tie down with it centered would they need tiedowns all over the deck?  Cambrianera posted that picture highlighting the holes in the deck which I'm assuming are for tiedowns.  You can see that they extend well outside of the painted circles.  Ohsin posted a grid that showed where the tie downs likely are based on an extrapolation of that post.  If they weren't going to use any tie downs outside of the center, why bother putting them all over the deck?

I guess you could make the argument that they will use the outer tiedowns temporarily while they are getting ready to shift the landed stage to the center of the barge.  Personally, I don't find that argument all that persuasive but YMMV.
« Last Edit: 01/01/2015 09:52 PM by deruch »
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Offline CJ

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #333 on: 01/01/2015 10:08 PM »
Regarding the issue of using Jacksonville as home port for the ASDS (which IMHO really, really needs a catchier name);

I've been in and out of Port Canaveral several times, on both yachts and cruise ships. The port to seaward of the bridge is not large; there are docking facilities along the south side of the channel, and three large embayments on the north side.  The easternmost of the embankments is, I think, military. The middle one is at least mostly military territory as well. The western one is the cruise ship port. I think that rules out porting the barge on the north side, while its width seems to preclude the southern shore. 

There is a raising bridge that connects the outer harbor with the Indian River area, and there are plenty of places to tie up a barge there, but there's a minor problem; the ASDS is 170 feet wide, while the seaway through the bridge is 90 feet wide. This would make getting it through there... challenging.

So, IMHO, a major factor against using port Canaveral is simply the size and layout of the port for a platform that size. Jacksonville, on the other hand, is vastly larger.

It'll be interesting to see when, and how, the ASDS sets out for the recovery attempt.

As for a crane... wouldn't it be simpler/cheaper to take the recovered stage to an existing crane in the port rather than set one up just for that occasional task? Would a crane for cargo containers be tall enough? Hoise the stage off, put it on a truck, and off to Hawthorne (Or McGregor?) it goes?

Fingers crossed that the CRX-5 stage makes it back.


Offline coypu76

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #334 on: 01/01/2015 11:11 PM »
Sea State forecast for Monday Night through Tuesday morning calls for winds shifting from NE to E at 10 to 15 knots, with seas at 5-7 feet and occasionally up to 8 feet in a mixed NE and SE swell, with possible showers.  Not terrible, but far from ideal.  http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/AM/470.html

The ASDS is pretty big, but in that kind of sea state the sea can be up to 16 feet higher at one end/side of the vessel than the other.  I'll guess that the thrusters and ballast on board the ASDS can address pitch and roll of the vessel as well as horizontal position.  Nevertheless, even though the sea state could be much worse, it's still going to make for a sporty landing.

Online Comga

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #335 on: 01/01/2015 11:18 PM »
Sea State forecast for Monday Night through Tuesday morning calls for winds shifting from NE to E at 10 to 15 knots, with seas at 5-7 feet and occasionally up to 8 feet in a mixed NE and SE swell, with possible showers.  Not terrible, but far from ideal.  http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/AM/470.html

The ASDS is pretty big, but in that kind of sea state the sea can be up to 16 feet higher at one end/side of the vessel than the other.  I'll guess that the thrusters and ballast on board the ASDS can address pitch and roll of the vessel as well as horizontal position.  Nevertheless, even though the sea state could be much worse, it's still going to make for a sporty landing.

I don't think that's how they measure "seas". 
Perhaps someone with experience can tell us how a fully ballasted 300 by 175 foot barge might react to 8 ft seas.
But you last statement will be correct in any case.   For now, any landing of a rocket will be "sporty"!
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline mvpel

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #336 on: 01/02/2015 12:09 AM »
Wave height is measured crest-to-trough. This forecast indicates WMO sea state 4, "moderate."

This proposal from Thrustmaster:

http://www.thrustmastertexas.com/Slideshow01/Thrustmaster%20Rapid%20Deployment%20Spill%20Response%20System.pps

... Indicates effectiveness up to SS-4.
« Last Edit: 01/02/2015 12:14 AM by mvpel »
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Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #337 on: 01/02/2015 12:46 AM »
Regarding the issue of using Jacksonville as home port for the ASDS (which IMHO really, really needs a catchier name);

I've been in and out of Port Canaveral several times, on both yachts and cruise ships. The port to seaward of the bridge is not large; there are docking facilities along the south side of the channel, and three large embayments on the north side.  The easternmost of the embankments is, I think, military. The middle one is at least mostly military territory as well. The western one is the cruise ship port. I think that rules out porting the barge on the north side,


Not true, commercial vehicles use the many of the northern embarkments (especially the middle one), see Delta Mariner.  The NASA ET barge used it too.

Offline Grandpa to Two

Where does a Falcon go after flying? The nest. A good enough name for the ASDS?
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Offline CJ

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #339 on: 01/02/2015 02:53 AM »
Regarding the issue of using Jacksonville as home port for the ASDS (which IMHO really, really needs a catchier name);

I've been in and out of Port Canaveral several times, on both yachts and cruise ships. The port to seaward of the bridge is not large; there are docking facilities along the south side of the channel, and three large embayments on the north side.  The easternmost of the embankments is, I think, military. The middle one is at least mostly military territory as well. The western one is the cruise ship port. I think that rules out porting the barge on the north side,


Not true, commercial vehicles use the many of the northern embarkments (especially the middle one), see Delta Mariner.  The NASA ET barge used it too.

Thanks for the info, Jim.

I wonder though; would SpaceX be allowed to keep ASDS there permanently, or just on an occasional basis? There doesn't look to be that much wharf space, and ASDS would take up quite a chunk of it if in permanent residence. 




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