Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2  (Read 2414762 times)

Offline deruch

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2322
  • California
  • Liked: 1856
  • Likes Given: 4087
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #140 on: 12/20/2014 09:26 PM »
Where is Clay with his kayak when we need him?   8)

(still in Louisiana; I know, I know)
Shouldn't reality posts be in "Advanced concepts"?  --Nomadd

Offline Kabloona

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4321
  • Velocitas Eradico
  • Fortress of Solitude
  • Liked: 2554
  • Likes Given: 529
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #141 on: 12/20/2014 09:55 PM »
Here are a few frames while leaving port.

Is there a side extension to see on both side of the ASDS? Theese are new compared to first-ever photo tweeted by Elon.

It could be measured on the third photo very well.

Yes, one on each side, about 1/3 width of the 35' side wing, so around 10-12' wide, probably safety/boarding platforms to aid moving big things on/off and prevent people/tools/etc from falling into the water between the wing and the dock.

Offline darkenfast

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 833
  • Liked: 517
  • Likes Given: 1313
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #142 on: 12/21/2014 02:57 AM »
The NASASpaceFlight Intelligence Department scores again!  Good job, guys!

Offline ClayJar

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 402
  • Baton Rouge, LA, USA
  • Liked: 855
  • Likes Given: 74
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #143 on: 12/21/2014 04:02 AM »
Where is Clay with his kayak when we need him?   8)

(still in Louisiana; I know, I know)
The Carnival webcam view has a far better angle than anything I could get from water level, but I've thought about a quick post-Christmas run over to Jacksonville.  It's less than three miles by water from the canoe/kayak launch at Reddie Point Preserve to the ASDS location, and Jacksonville's only nine hours away from Baton Rouge.

Obviously, I'm not going to paddle right up to it, but if anyone can come up with a good reason to want water-level photos, Monday *is* my last work day until January 5th...  8)

Offline darkenfast

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 833
  • Liked: 517
  • Likes Given: 1313
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #144 on: 12/21/2014 04:10 AM »
Okay, I just had a crazy image of the tug and barge heading out for the launch and landing, with nobody noticing the guy in the kayak tied to the off-side, with a bunch of cameras around his neck!

Offline Lar

  • Fan boy at large
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10762
  • Saw Gemini live on TV
  • A large LEGO storage facility ... in Michigan
  • Liked: 7665
  • Likes Given: 5508
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #145 on: 12/21/2014 06:12 AM »
Just everyone please be safe and sane (and relatively sober)... don't actually try to stowaway and don't drive 20 hours just to get a quick snap unless you wanted to go to JAX anyway...
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline hrissan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
  • Novosibirsk, Russia
  • Liked: 310
  • Likes Given: 1942
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #146 on: 12/21/2014 09:39 AM »
Just everyone please be safe and sane (and relatively sober)... don't actually try to stowaway and don't drive 20 hours just to get a quick snap unless you wanted to go to JAX anyway...
I will just post it here (story in english): http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-roofers-free-ride-on-battleship-aurora-in-daring-stunt-video/507521.html





P.S. In USA you have probably much more chances to being shot or sued to death if you try this (than in Russia)... So never try this...

Those guys were "punished" by forcing them to drink tea in the company of captain and police officers. :)
« Last Edit: 12/21/2014 12:54 PM by hrissan »

Offline mvpel

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1124
  • New Hampshire
  • Liked: 1295
  • Likes Given: 1686
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #147 on: 12/21/2014 01:37 PM »
Obviously, I'm not going to paddle right up to it, but if anyone can come up with a good reason to want water-level photos, Monday *is* my last work day until January 5th...  8)

Well, certainly folks have been curious about the wing structures, and the Thrustmasters. And I think you'd still be able to get a decent photo angle on the equipment on deck even from a kayak. Plus you could do some ocean kayaking while you're there; and the weather on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday looks lovely and will be much warmer than Baton Rouge.
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." - Eric S. Raymond

Offline Ohsin

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1469
  • Liked: 1451
  • Likes Given: 2380
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #148 on: 12/21/2014 01:56 PM »
CAD drawings of OD300N model from Thrustmaster website also match with ASDS images as guessed by eriblo here

Quote
OD-300N Hydraulic Outboard thruster Unit with Nautronix JSDP5000 Dynamic Positioning System (DP-1 Class) Controller,
Manufactured 2003 with only 500 hours use.
Thrusters:  (4) hydraulic ASTM A36 Carbon Steel thrusters yielding 8,000 lbf each, propellers 39, bi-directional 4-blade Kaplan, manganese-broze with Kort 19-A nozzle (540 rpm), Mounting:  thruster o mini-skid, positioned and attached according to vessel structural members, weight 5,800 lbs e ach
Hydraulic power units:
(4) Cat 3406 diesel engines 360 BHP @ 1800 rpm (full load,
Fuel consumption 17.5 US Gal per hour at full load,
Day tank capacity 150 US gallons.
Dimensions:  114-3/4 Long x 57 wide x 93 high.
Note:  an additional 3 is minimum clearance required at both ends of HPU for air inflow and outflow, making effectfive length requirement of 17 4-3/4,
Weight 11,300 lbs each.
Placement:  within 50 of thruster, connecting hose bundle: 6 hoses, overall diameter of 6
Price:  $950,000

http://www.sunmachinery.com/Marinecomponents.html

By looks HPU(minus exhaust) is of almost same height with Cherrypicker ( Teupen LEO 23GT ) ~6'5" vs ~6'11' while it is on its legs.

So what are those five white containers and another small one? May be generators and comm equipment.. Also the closeup pic by Stephen Clark show a small gate cut out from yellow beam to let that cute cherrypicker out.
« Last Edit: 12/21/2014 02:45 PM by Ohsin »
"Well, three cheers to Sharma, but our real baby is INSAT."

Offline daver

  • Regular
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
  • South Carolina
  • Liked: 85
  • Likes Given: 840
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #149 on: 12/21/2014 02:28 PM »
Where is Clay with his kayak when we need him?   8)

(still in Louisiana; I know, I know)
The Carnival webcam view has a far better angle than anything I could get from water level, but I've thought about a quick post-Christmas run over to Jacksonville.  It's less than three miles by water from the canoe/kayak launch at Reddie Point Preserve to the ASDS location, and Jacksonville's only nine hours away from Baton Rouge.

Obviously, I'm not going to paddle right up to it, but if anyone can come up with a good reason to want water-level photos, Monday *is* my last work day until January 5th...  8)

There is a bridge on 105 that you can park under and launch a kayak or canoe.   Its pretty close (300 or 400 yards) from the Port Authority / barge.    That would be the best way to get close other than buying a cruise ship ticket.    Add a drone and you would be in like flynn. 


edit:  I'll be driving by the barge location omw home to SC today.  I'll swing by again and take a picture of the bridge area.
« Last Edit: 12/21/2014 02:35 PM by daver »

Offline cscott

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2949
  • Liked: 2055
  • Likes Given: 664
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #150 on: 12/21/2014 04:04 PM »
If we're making wish lists, I'd love to see some up-close detail of the deck surface.  Is it gridded?  I don't know that we'll ever get images close enough to tell, unless courtesy of a friendly kayaker. ;)
I'm also curious about those wing structures -- the latest photos make the wings look fairly permanent, which means there's no way the barge will fit through the panama canal to service vandenberg.  A kayak view might be able to determine if there's any evidence of hinge structure.

Okan -- is there anything else you'd like to see better in order to refine your 3d models for rendering?

Offline mvpel

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1124
  • New Hampshire
  • Liked: 1295
  • Likes Given: 1686
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #151 on: 12/21/2014 04:36 PM »
CAD drawings of OD300N model from Thrustmaster website also match with ASDS images as guessed by eriblo here

That last photo was an "ah ha" moment for me - I was wondering if the thrusters were able to apply force to keep the barge level, as well as holding its position, but I wasn't able to find anything definitive while browsing the Thrustmaster website. Once I saw that photo I realized that you could do it with the deployment/stowing hydraulics - the two silver pistons we see in the foreground of the equipment.

By bringing the nacelle arm upward to something less than a 90 degree angle, the propellers can apply Z-axis forces - with varying amounts of cosine loss depending on the angle - as well as X- and Y-axis forces for stationkeeping, and could work in concert to counteract a certain amount wave action which would tend to make the deck pitch and roll. The degree to which they could do so would depend on how nimble the nacelles are, too, I expect.

The question then becomes, of course, are the Thrustmasters actually going to be operated in this way to help keep the barge level for the approaching booster, as well as keeping it in position?
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." - Eric S. Raymond

Offline Lar

  • Fan boy at large
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10762
  • Saw Gemini live on TV
  • A large LEGO storage facility ... in Michigan
  • Liked: 7665
  • Likes Given: 5508
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #152 on: 12/21/2014 05:04 PM »
Do we have an estimate of how much deflection from horizontal we can expect? I would assume this might be calculatable or simulatable given knowledge of the nature of the waves.

If the barge is aligned perpendicular to the prevailing direction of waves, then what matters is the crest to trough distance, and the height. But only if that crest to trough distance is somewhere near the length of the barge[1]. I know that open ocean swells can have very large crest/trough distances.

1 - thought experiment, consider if the crest/trough was 10 feet, that would mean that there would be 15 waves active at any time. Basically no contribution to vertical motion except for a bit of jitter.  If the crest/trough distance was 1000, then the barge would be more or less tangent to whatever the curvature of the center was at the time. Where is the cutoff? How close together do they need to be not to have any effect?
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Online eriblo

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 294
  • Sweden
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 111
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #153 on: 12/21/2014 05:17 PM »
CAD drawings of OD300N model from Thrustmaster website also match with ASDS images as guessed by eriblo here

That last photo was an "ah ha" moment for me - I was wondering if the thrusters were able to apply force to keep the barge level, as well as holding its position, but I wasn't able to find anything definitive while browsing the Thrustmaster website. Once I saw that photo I realized that you could do it with the deployment/stowing hydraulics - the two silver pistons we see in the foreground of the equipment.

By bringing the nacelle arm upward to something less than a 90 degree angle, the propellers can apply Z-axis forces - with varying amounts of cosine loss depending on the angle - as well as X- and Y-axis forces for stationkeeping, and could work in concert to counteract a certain amount wave action which would tend to make the deck pitch and roll. The degree to which they could do so would depend on how nimble the nacelles are, too, I expect.

The question then becomes, of course, are the Thrustmasters actually going to be operated in this way to help keep the barge level for the approaching booster, as well as keeping it in position?

I highly doubt that that is possible - the kick-up feature is most likely only meant to tilt the thrusters between two locked positions and would not be powerful enough. Even if they could be operated in that fashion I think they would be grossly under-powered. If they are the OD300N model they have a maximum thrust of 16 tonnes total - wouldn't they be fighting against a not-insignificant portion of the ASDSs displacement (thousands of tonnes) for any large deviations from horizontal?

Disclaimer: I do not really know anything about ships and barges other than basic physics, so feel free to correct me :)

Online speedevil

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3068
  • Fife
  • Liked: 1543
  • Likes Given: 1824
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #154 on: 12/21/2014 08:53 PM »
I highly doubt that that is possible - the kick-up feature is most likely only meant to tilt the thrusters between two locked positions and would not be powerful enough. Even if they could be operated in that fashion I think they would be grossly under-powered. If they are the OD300N model they have a maximum thrust of 16 tonnes total - wouldn't they be fighting against a not-insignificant portion of the ASDSs displacement (thousands of tonnes) for any large deviations from horizontal? 

Disclaimer: I do not really know anything about ships and barges other than basic physics, so feel free to correct me :)

I agree.
Another interesting snippet from http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/recent-news.html

Quote
McDonough Marine Service announced the launching of the MARMAC 302, the first of two new 300' x 100' x 20' ABS Class ocean going barges commissioned by the barge and marine transportation company. The barges were designed by Dan Jones & Associates with an ABS Load line maximum cargo capacity of 13,200 short tons at 15.7' draft. The uniform deck strength of 4,500 lbs/sq. ft., combined with a increased side shell strength, provides clients with maximum hull protection. Additionally, the latest industry design provides charterers the greatest opportunity to thrive in the increasingly challenging Gulf of Mexico offshore cargo markets.
(the 303 is the SpaceX barge)

4500lb/sqft - 22 tons/m^2 or so - is very easily strong enough to cope with landing loads.

Looking at and the above ship as well as

There is no raised deck - the height over the water seems entirely consistent with the 302.
The containers at the back and front are clearly at exactly the same height as the deck.

It is not inconceivable that the deck has had lots of holes drilled in it for 'hold-downs' which are giving the transparent effect in some photos. The speculation around this was largely done before it was realised just how far down the COG is - being below the upper leg attach points.
But re-looking at the initial photo that started it all, I wonder if it's simply a slightly dodgy paint-job, and a not completely flat deck.
If painting early in the morning - say - it's quite possible to get large amounts of 'print-through' from cold substructure which affects the paint.

As to rapid manoevering - there is an easier solution.
The craft weighs about 3000 tons empty.
The ballast tanks can hold about 10000 tons of fluid.

All you need is about 21 Raptors underneath, and you can fly up to ~5km, and catch the stage while still ballistic.

« Last Edit: 12/21/2014 09:18 PM by Davinator »

Offline cavok

  • Member
  • Posts: 3
  • europe
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #155 on: 12/21/2014 09:53 PM »
first post here, just started reading into the whole space-x return-to-land attempts! fascinating and awesome :-)

from observing the cruising industry / cruising a few times,

i would suggest someone posting requests for picture-taking in the "carnival roll calls / fascination" board
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=342
practically for every cruise, there are many travelers organizing themselves / it should be easy to get in touch with people on the actual boat/cruise, even when under way and point them to the object of interest!...

alternatively, posting in the generic carnival board http://boards.cruisecritic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=215 (more readers than in the roll calls section) or in the florida port discussion http://boards.cruisecritic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=495 may return great info.

looking forward to further bits of info :-)

Offline Eagandale4114

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 194
  • Liked: 231
  • Likes Given: 346
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #156 on: 12/22/2014 01:00 AM »
Well we have two attempts this January for a landing. CRS-5 and DSCOVR will both try to land.

Offline PhilW

More pictures with ASDS wing support details and Thrust Master locations.

Offline douglas100

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2177
  • Liked: 226
  • Likes Given: 104
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #158 on: 12/22/2014 07:26 AM »
Well we have two attempts this January for a landing. CRS-5 and DSCOVR will both try to land.

No legs on DSCOVR per Jim.
Douglas Clark

Offline Ohsin

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1469
  • Liked: 1451
  • Likes Given: 2380
Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #159 on: 12/22/2014 09:33 AM »
More pictures with ASDS wing support details and Thrust Master locations.

Nice clear view of those thrusters :) What is the source of these new pics PhilW?

One thing I have been looking for since the beginning is some system to suppress fire in case that blow torch from high heavens goes crazy. So far I don't see any deluge guns..or may be some bird bath like in attached pics all I can see is some fire extinguishers on fuel tanks HPUs. If we assume a big fire suppression system is there it would need tanks. One can put these tanks in front of critical equipment as shield too....so if there are any COTS containerized fire fighting system.. they could use that.

« Last Edit: 12/24/2014 07:21 AM by Ohsin »
"Well, three cheers to Sharma, but our real baby is INSAT."

Tags: