In particular, a second Orion modified to be a mission module could come off the existing assembly line in much less time than that. Just leave off the heat shield; how hard can that be to develop?
Now some may think such a payload and the mission it would enable aren't "worthwhile." Frankly, those pessimists would do well to reconsider what's worth what!
Neither Dragon or CST 100 have. airlocks either, and they do not have the comms, the navs, supplies, etc.
Capsules of any type, including the Orion, are not the future of space travel. They are too small to support humans for any length of time in space, and are really only needed when close to a planet with a thick enough atmosphere.QuoteAt least NASA is talking about Habs.
NASA "talks" about a lot of things, but actually is allowed to do very little per their budget.QuoteThe opportunity exists to leverage the SLS tooling and build a hab large enough to address shielding and the need for humans to have enough interior space to keep sanity on a long voyage (Skylab 2, if you want to google the concept).
There is no known reason that I'm aware of to build habitable modules larger than what we already know how to build for the ISS (essentially ~5m in diameter). The designs and tooling already exists and the hardware has already been proven out in space.
Building HLV-sized modules limits where the hardware can be built (i.e. transportation limitations), which means factories for existing space hardware can't be used. That increases the costs for HLV-size missions, which is already an issue for using the Orion and SLS.QuoteYes, just a powerpoint, yes no roadmap, yes no funding.
Just like all plans that require the Orion and the SLS...QuoteIn the 3 years I've been hanging out here this same discussion comes up periodically, the thread keeps changing but the only constant is SLS is being built, infrastructure at the cape is being changed to accommodate it, the first Orion FTA launches tomorrow, and the naysayers have changed from "it will never fly" to "well it will only fly once, or twice, or definitely not more than three times, or twelve times."
The other constant that you forget to mention is the lack of any funding to USE the Orion or the SLS. That continues to be the true indicator of what's in store for the Orion and SLS, not any of our opinions.
Sad. But not surprising. With that budget imagine what could be accomplished if it wasn't OldSpace doing it. Sorry for that tone but it's how I feel.
You mean the 0.5% of the federal budget that NASA gets and the around 0.2% that human spaceflight gets? New Space wouldn't be able to do much of anything with it either.
The asteroid mission has never made a lot of sense to me. By the mid 20's I expect PRI and DSI to be actively mining, or they will have failed. Further, Hayabusa 2 will get a lot more science accomplished, I expect, since it's staying at a C type asteroid for 18 months..
If you really want a worthwhile mission, Phobos and Diemos seem like good possibilities to me. SpaceX might already BE on Mars or on the way, by the mid 2020s, but they plan to bypass those moons. So, NASA, send a crew there.
The asteroid mission has never made a lot of sense to me. By the mid 20's I expect PRI and DSI to be actively mining, or they will have failed. Further, Hayabusa 2 will get a lot more science accomplished, I expect, since it's staying at a C type asteroid for 18 months..
I doubt either PRI or DSI will be mining asteroids by then. They may have sent a small sample return mission by then, but getting to the point where they're ready for mining is a nontrivial project.
The thing most people seem to miss about this is that we'll be bringing back an asteroid or boulder that masses 90-500 tonnes. Sure, Orion will visit it once and bring back some samples, but most of that mass will still be there, now easily reachable by future NASA or commercial missions that want to study ISRU and other things. It'll be in a stable orbit that will last hundreds or thousands of years without any stationkeeping. It's a small new moon, but a new moon nonetheless. I'm a pretty dyed-in-the-wool Moon Firster, but still am intrigued by this mission, since I think it could make asteroid ISRU a much nearer term possibility.
You wouldn't get that with a robotic small sample return mission like Hayabusa 2 or anything PRI or DSI will be doing soon.
You wouldn't get that by visiting a NEO "free range" for a couple of weeks out in heliocentric orbit.
You wouldn't get that by a trip to a small asteroid that drifts through earth-moon space.
If you care about asteroid ISRU, this could be a really big deal (if done right--always got to throw in that caveat).QuoteIf you really want a worthwhile mission, Phobos and Diemos seem like good possibilities to me. SpaceX might already BE on Mars or on the way, by the mid 2020s, but they plan to bypass those moons. So, NASA, send a crew there.
That's kind of like saying that a trip to the museum would be boring, so you want to climb Everest instead. I totally agree that Phobos/Deimos would be very interesting, and much cooler. But they're also a ton more expensive and difficult to get to than what ARM is proposing. And if followed-up on correctly, ARM would make a future Phobos/Deimos mission a whole lot easier.
~Jon
a second Orion modified to be a mission module could come off the existing assembly line in much less time than that. Just leave off the heat shield; how hard can that be to develop?
What will it be used for, how much will it cost, and WHERE'S THE MONEY?
The asteroid mission has never made a lot of sense to me. By the mid 20's I expect PRI and DSI to be actively mining, or they will have failed. Further, Hayabusa 2 will get a lot more science accomplished, I expect, since it's staying at a C type asteroid for 18 months..
I doubt either PRI or DSI will be mining asteroids by then. They may have sent a small sample return mission by then, but getting to the point where they're ready for mining is a nontrivial project.
The thing most people seem to miss about this is that we'll be bringing back an asteroid or boulder that masses 90-500 tonnes. Sure, Orion will visit it once and bring back some samples, but most of that mass will still be there, now easily reachable by future NASA or commercial missions that want to study ISRU and other things. It'll be in a stable orbit that will last hundreds or thousands of years without any stationkeeping. It's a small new moon, but a new moon nonetheless. I'm a pretty dyed-in-the-wool Moon Firster, but still am intrigued by this mission, since I think it could make asteroid ISRU a much nearer term possibility.
You wouldn't get that with a robotic small sample return mission like Hayabusa 2 or anything PRI or DSI will be doing soon.
You wouldn't get that by visiting a NEO "free range" for a couple of weeks out in heliocentric orbit.
You wouldn't get that by a trip to a small asteroid that drifts through earth-moon space.
If you care about asteroid ISRU, this could be a really big deal (if done right--always got to throw in that caveat).QuoteIf you really want a worthwhile mission, Phobos and Diemos seem like good possibilities to me. SpaceX might already BE on Mars or on the way, by the mid 2020s, but they plan to bypass those moons. So, NASA, send a crew there.
That's kind of like saying that a trip to the museum would be boring, so you want to climb Everest instead. I totally agree that Phobos/Deimos would be very interesting, and much cooler. But they're also a ton more expensive and difficult to get to than what ARM is proposing. And if followed-up on correctly, ARM would make a future Phobos/Deimos mission a whole lot easier.
~Jon
The asteroid mission has never made a lot of sense to me. By the mid 20's I expect PRI and DSI to be actively mining, or they will have failed. Further, Hayabusa 2 will get a lot more science accomplished, I expect, since it's staying at a C type asteroid for 18 months..
I doubt either PRI or DSI will be mining asteroids by then. They may have sent a small sample return mission by then, but getting to the point where they're ready for mining is a nontrivial project.
The thing most people seem to miss about this is that we'll be bringing back an asteroid or boulder that masses 90-500 tonnes. Sure, Orion will visit it once and bring back some samples, but most of that mass will still be there, now easily reachable by future NASA or commercial missions that want to study ISRU and other things. It'll be in a stable orbit that will last hundreds or thousands of years without any stationkeeping. It's a small new moon, but a new moon nonetheless. I'm a pretty dyed-in-the-wool Moon Firster, but still am intrigued by this mission, since I think it could make asteroid ISRU a much nearer term possibility.
You wouldn't get that with a robotic small sample return mission like Hayabusa 2 or anything PRI or DSI will be doing soon.
You wouldn't get that by visiting a NEO "free range" for a couple of weeks out in heliocentric orbit.
You wouldn't get that by a trip to a small asteroid that drifts through earth-moon space.
If you care about asteroid ISRU, this could be a really big deal (if done right--always got to throw in that caveat).QuoteIf you really want a worthwhile mission, Phobos and Diemos seem like good possibilities to me. SpaceX might already BE on Mars or on the way, by the mid 2020s, but they plan to bypass those moons. So, NASA, send a crew there.
That's kind of like saying that a trip to the museum would be boring, so you want to climb Everest instead. I totally agree that Phobos/Deimos would be very interesting, and much cooler. But they're also a ton more expensive and difficult to get to than what ARM is proposing. And if followed-up on correctly, ARM would make a future Phobos/Deimos mission a whole lot easier.
~JonEven a 500t pile of rubble has significant quantities(10s tons)of oxygen in it. If PR or DSI can development processes for extracting the oxygen and place it in cislunar space eg EML1 depot it would help enable a cislunar space transport system.
Orion is optimized for BEO. ..
Orion is optimized for BEO. ..I would like to point out that this often repeated statement is next to useless and carries almost no information. What is BEO ? Orbit of Europa ? Venusian surface ?
In reality, spacecraft get designed for specific destinations and environments they go to for so many reasons. You either design a spacecraft to go to lunar surface or you dont. You design a spacecraft to land on Mars or you dont.
"BEO" is literally no place in particular ( except any earth orbit ), for which you cant really honestly design for.
BEO for Orion is lunar orbit and the Earth-Moon Lagrange points.
BEO for Orion is lunar orbit and the Earth-Moon Lagrange points.
"BEO" is literally no place in particular ( except any earth orbit ), for which you cant really honestly design for.BEO for Orion is lunar orbit and the Earth-Moon Lagrange points.
"BEO" is literally no place in particular ( except any earth orbit ), for which you cant really honestly design for.BEO for Orion is lunar orbit and the Earth-Moon Lagrange points.
The Moon orbits the Earth, so that's not really "Beyond Earth Orbit", right? Even the Earth-Moon Lagrange points are still part of the Earth-Moon system, so a vehicle would need to go beyond the influence of Earth's gravity to really be BEO - and 21 days is not enough time to do that.
...so a vehicle would need to go beyond the influence of Earth's gravity to really be BEO
and 21 days is not enough time to do that.
Orion is optimized for BEO. ..I would like to point out that this often repeated statement is next to useless and carries almost no information. What is BEO ? Orbit of Europa ? Venusian surface ?
In reality, spacecraft get designed for specific destinations and environments they go to for so many reasons. You either design a spacecraft to go to lunar surface or you dont. You design a spacecraft to land on Mars or you dont.
"BEO" is literally no place in particular ( except any earth orbit ), for which you cant really honestly design for.
The basic plan to use Orion as a command module and then stick a hab module on for long duration flights is sound.
If it's staying in space, it's nuts to take the control module down to Earth whenever you take your passengers back there.