Author Topic: Orbital ATK OmegA (NGL) Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION - Thread 2  (Read 34163 times)

Offline Propylox

  • Member
  • Posts: 99
  • Colorado
  • Liked: 15
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Orbital ATK OmegA (NGL) Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION - Thread 2
« Reply #120 on: 10/21/2018 03:29 am »
The heavy class looks like a vibration nightmare.  Wonder how they will solve that...
I'm more interested/concerned with them air lighting a 12ft solid upper stage.
That thing better have wheelibars. Can't wait to see the test flight.

Offline rayleighscatter

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1042
  • Maryland
  • Liked: 486
  • Likes Given: 228
Re: Orbital ATK OmegA (NGL) Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION - Thread 2
« Reply #121 on: 10/21/2018 01:31 pm »
The heavy class looks like a vibration nightmare.  Wonder how they will solve that...
I'm more interested/concerned with them air lighting a 12ft solid upper stage.
That thing better have wheelibars. Can't wait to see the test flight.

They have plenty of experience with air lit motors (Anatares, Minotaur, Peacekeeper, Minuteman, etc.) and the initial burn can be controlled with the casting pattern.

Offline Propylox

  • Member
  • Posts: 99
  • Colorado
  • Liked: 15
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Orbital ATK OmegA (NGL) Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION - Thread 2
« Reply #122 on: 10/23/2018 01:32 am »
They have plenty of experience with air lit motors (Anatares, Minotaur, Peacekeeper, Minuteman, etc.) and the initial burn can be controlled with the casting pattern.
Agreed, but I also know they'll have their hands full due to the solid's size. Diameter increases combustion instability-producing yaw, especially upon ignition. An obvious solution is to retard ignition, giving time for combustion to equalize, but that's a performance killer for upper stages. An alternative is to cast a longer throat, giving room for higher-pressure to reflect into the plume's center. Not sure what they'll do, but I'm looking forward to seeing them test it.

    ----------------------------
Ever since OmegA and it's ginormous solid US was revealed I've questioned the design, especially since a liquid US like Ares-1 or Liberty would be so capable. On Oct 22 a meeting and several announcements came out of Yuzhnoe. They've kept a few lights on producing tankage for Antares, built a few other tanks (1st and 2nd) to show investors and may soon have access to the RD-120 needed for uppers.
RussianSpaceWeb article, cut to avoid linking: ht tp://ww w.russiansp aceweb.com/sea-lau nch-2018.html#1018

Considering Orbital's working relation with them and history developing versions of the stick, a Castor 900 topped by Zenit's 2nd-stage is doable, just about perfect flight profile, eliminates the DeltaIV cryo-stage and offers performance about equal to the Heavy OmegA. A downside; the RD-8 currently can't be re-fired so Orbital would need to offer their hypergolic BTS or other 3rd-stage for GEO or crazy maneuvers.
edit: clean up.
« Last Edit: 10/23/2018 01:38 am by Propylox »

Offline Hog

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Woodstock
  • Liked: 356
  • Likes Given: 1119
Re: Orbital ATK OmegA (NGL) Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION - Thread 2
« Reply #123 on: 10/29/2018 03:03 pm »
This post is a continuation of a thread in L2, I'm placing it here as there is nothing revolutionary in its contents.

For clarity, is this NGL  technology for the core stage Solid Rocket Motors, which are approx. the same size as STS/SLS Solid Rocket Boosters, going to be directly applicable to the future "Black Knights" Solid Rocket Boosters that will be required once the current stock of 1/2" thick steel casings have been exhausted via SLS launches?

I'd think that most of this development would be a "wrap" considering there was a set of flight Filament Wound Case Solid Rocket Boosters (FWC-SRB) stacked at the West Coast shuttle launch facility that was chosen back in 1972 which was Vandenberg AFB, more precisely Space Launch Complex-6 (SLC-6 or "slick-Six")awaiting final stacking with ET-(sorry couldnt quickly find a tank number) and OV-103 Discovery in preparation for the imminent due South launch of the polar mission STS-62-A crewed by:   
Robert L. Crippen
Guy S. Gardner
Richard M. Mullane
Jerry L. Ross
Dale A. Gardner
Edward C. Aldridge, Jr.
Brett Watterson

One added bonus of using such a Solid Rocket Motor in a "stick" configuration is that there would be no "twang" motion for the joints to account for during launch.

pics
1) Filament Wound Case prior to test firing
2) SLC-6 in Shuttle Operations mode
3) Mission patch for STS-62-A
Paul

Online Calphor

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 155
  • Liked: 98
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Orbital ATK OmegA (NGL) Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION - Thread 2
« Reply #124 on: 10/29/2018 07:57 pm »
This post is a continuation of a thread in L2, I'm placing it here as there is nothing revolutionary in its contents.

For clarity, is this NGL  technology for the core stage Solid Rocket Motors, which are approx. the same size as STS/SLS Solid Rocket Boosters, going to be directly applicable to the future "Black Knights" Solid Rocket Boosters that will be required once the current stock of 1/2" thick steel casings have been exhausted via SLS launches?

I'd think that most of this development would be a "wrap" considering there was a set of flight Filament Wound Case Solid Rocket Boosters (FWC-SRB) stacked at the West Coast shuttle launch facility that was chosen back in 1972 which was Vandenberg AFB, more precisely Space Launch Complex-6 (SLC-6 or "slick-Six")awaiting final stacking with ET-(sorry couldnt quickly find a tank number) and OV-103 Discovery in preparation for the imminent due South launch of the polar mission STS-62-A crewed by:   
Robert L. Crippen
Guy S. Gardner
Richard M. Mullane
Jerry L. Ross
Dale A. Gardner
Edward C. Aldridge, Jr.
Brett Watterson

One added bonus of using such a Solid Rocket Motor in a "stick" configuration is that there would be no "twang" motion for the joints to account for during launch.

The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that the NGL/OmegA solids will incorporate lessons learned from both the FWC effort as well as the Titan SRMU, however, the length of time that has elapsed from those programs means that there are lessons that will need to be relearned as well as new materials to incorporate. The "Black Knights" will utilize that expertise along with the infrastructure investments that were made for NGL/OmegA.

Offline GWH

While its obviously not its intended purpose, has anyone tried to take a stab at what Omega & Omega Heavy could place in LEO?

Offline envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4997
  • Liked: 2898
  • Likes Given: 1489
Re: Orbital ATK OmegA (NGL) Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION - Thread 2
« Reply #126 on: 11/14/2018 02:56 pm »
While its obviously not its intended purpose, has anyone tried to take a stab at what Omega & Omega Heavy could place in LEO?

Assuming the composites reduce dry mass by 40%, and the upper stage is basically a 2-engine DCSS, I get about 12.5 t to ISS from the Cape for the base version.

Interestingly, they could eliminate the solid 2nd stage and still get about 8 tonnes to ISS, roughly the performance of Atlas V 401 with just a 2-seg solid booster and the LH2 upper stage. The second engine on the upper stage helps a lot here.

The 6-solid XL should get around 25-30 t to very low orbit or 22-26 t to ISS, similar to DIVH performance.

Online russianhalo117

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4891
  • AR USA / Berlin, DE / Moscow, RF
  • Liked: 1321
  • Likes Given: 598
Re: Orbital ATK OmegA (NGL) Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION - Thread 2
« Reply #127 on: 11/14/2018 03:03 pm »
This post is a continuation of a thread in L2, I'm placing it here as there is nothing revolutionary in its contents.

For clarity, is this NGL  technology for the core stage Solid Rocket Motors, which are approx. the same size as STS/SLS Solid Rocket Boosters, going to be directly applicable to the future "Black Knights" Solid Rocket Boosters that will be required once the current stock of 1/2" thick steel casings have been exhausted via SLS launches?

I'd think that most of this development would be a "wrap" considering there was a set of flight Filament Wound Case Solid Rocket Boosters (FWC-SRB) stacked at the West Coast shuttle launch facility that was chosen back in 1972 which was Vandenberg AFB, more precisely Space Launch Complex-6 (SLC-6 or "slick-Six")awaiting final stacking with ET-(sorry couldnt quickly find a tank number) and OV-103 Discovery in preparation for the imminent due South launch of the polar mission STS-62-A crewed by:   
Robert L. Crippen
Guy S. Gardner
Richard M. Mullane
Jerry L. Ross
Dale A. Gardner
Edward C. Aldridge, Jr.
Brett Watterson

One added bonus of using such a Solid Rocket Motor in a "stick" configuration is that there would be no "twang" motion for the joints to account for during launch.

The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that the NGL/OmegA solids will incorporate lessons learned from both the FWC effort as well as the Titan SRMU, however, the length of time that has elapsed from those programs means that there are lessons that will need to be relearned as well as new materials to incorporate. The "Black Knights" will utilize that expertise along with the infrastructure investments that were made for NGL/OmegA.
Your view is to narrow: they just completed several next gen development programmes (Castor-120XL, LCS et cetera). In terms of casing material and construction they are going with next gen design used on LCS ICBM stage development programme and civilian equivalent Castor 120, 30 Star 92. Lessons learned from the previous shuttle/Titan motor programmes are also being incorporated too.

Offline obi-wan

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 286
  • Liked: 617
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Orbital ATK OmegA (NGL) Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION - Thread 2
« Reply #128 on: 11/14/2018 05:19 pm »
This post is a continuation of a thread in L2, I'm placing it here as there is nothing revolutionary in its contents.

For clarity, is this NGL  technology for the core stage Solid Rocket Motors, which are approx. the same size as STS/SLS Solid Rocket Boosters, going to be directly applicable to the future "Black Knights" Solid Rocket Boosters that will be required once the current stock of 1/2" thick steel casings have been exhausted via SLS launches?

I'd think that most of this development would be a "wrap" considering there was a set of flight Filament Wound Case Solid Rocket Boosters (FWC-SRB) stacked at the West Coast shuttle launch facility that was chosen back in 1972 which was Vandenberg AFB, more precisely Space Launch Complex-6 (SLC-6 or "slick-Six")awaiting final stacking with ET-(sorry couldnt quickly find a tank number) and OV-103 Discovery in preparation for the imminent due South launch of the polar mission STS-62-A crewed by:   
Robert L. Crippen
Guy S. Gardner
Richard M. Mullane
Jerry L. Ross
Dale A. Gardner
Edward C. Aldridge, Jr.
Brett Watterson

One added bonus of using such a Solid Rocket Motor in a "stick" configuration is that there would be no "twang" motion for the joints to account for during launch.

The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that the NGL/OmegA solids will incorporate lessons learned from both the FWC effort as well as the Titan SRMU, however, the length of time that has elapsed from those programs means that there are lessons that will need to be relearned as well as new materials to incorporate. The "Black Knights" will utilize that expertise along with the infrastructure investments that were made for NGL/OmegA.
Your view is to narrow: they just completed several next gen development programmes (Castor-120XL, LCS et cetera). In terms of casing material and construction they are going with next gen design used on LCS ICBM stage development programme and civilian equivalent Castor 120, 30 Star 92. Lessons learned from the previous shuttle/Titan motor programmes are also being incorporated too.
It should be noted that the filament-wound case (FWC) for the shuttle program failed in a hydrostatic test. While it exceeded the expected flight loads, it failed before reaching the required factor of safety. A classic problem with composite materials is that there is a much wider variation in failure loads across multiple samples than would be true for metallic samples. Reaching the required factor of safety with high confidence across the range of expected variations of individual parts would have added more weight and reduced the advantage of using a FWC. In the end, since the Challenger accident caused NASA to cancel flying from Vandenberg (which was the real driver for FWC) they just canceled the program.

Online Ronsmytheiii

  • Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22542
  • Liked: 888
  • Likes Given: 312

Tags: updates