What will be first, Mars or Hyperloop?

[go4mars]

Maybe terrorists will completely ignore the opportunity to wreak tremendous havoc with a simple satchel charge at the right time. Airliners at cruise have lots of space to maneuver when something goes wrong. This thing will be inches away from hitting a wall at several times the speed of a high powered rifle bullet at the tiniest problem. It would require a degree of perfection, trust and reliability that's not likely in this world.
 It doesn't "sound kind of dangerous" It is ridiculously dangerous.

If you want to live in fear of it, call it caution or something else if you will, then don't buy a ticket.  I doubt anyone will be forced to ride.  I hope there's a Calgary-Edmonton-Vancouver-Ft.Mac hyperloop before too long.

[cscott]

Maybe terrorists will completely ignore the opportunity to wreak tremendous havoc with a simple satchel charge at the right time. Airliners at cruise have lots of space to maneuver when something goes wrong. This thing will be inches away from hitting a wall at several times the speed of a high powered rifle bullet at the tiniest problem. It would require a degree of perfection, trust and reliability that's not likely in this world.
 It doesn't "sound kind of dangerous" It is ridiculously dangerous.

If you want to live in fear of it, call it caution or something else if you will, then don't buy a ticket.  I doubt anyone will be forced to ride.  I hope there's a Calgary-Edmonton-Vancouver-Ft.Mac hyperloop before too long.

And the "small satchel charge" business is nonsense.  There are hundreds of places one could put a "small satchel charge" and cause tremendous damage.  The reasons why it doesn't happen are social, political, and moral, and have nothing to do with the technical details of a transportation system.
https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2005/09/terrorists_dont_do_m.html

[Vultur]

Maybe terrorists will completely ignore the opportunity to wreak tremendous havoc with a simple satchel charge at the right time.

There are a lot of things terrorists *could* damage. But there aren't very many terrorist incidents in the US despite the fear (just like nuclear accidents, the fear of it and measures taken to prevent it is way out of proportion to the risk). If this was being considered for, say, one of the disputed Israel-Palestine areas....

[dglow]

So there is nobody, who believes that Elon Musk knows something we don't and has a reason to believe it will be Hyperloop soon? Because there is something concrete going on?

What's concrete is that California's governor was just elected to his 4th (career) and final term, and wants high-speed rail as one of his legacies. If Elon's wishes to build a demo tube, now seems the time.

Earthquakes.  Even if it doesn't come completely apart, it can rupture and lose the vacuum.  And the LA to Las Vegas route, at least, would have to cross the San Andreas fault, and a few others.

Rupture and loss of vacuum is not a LOV/LOC event for the hyperloop. Its tubes do not operate at pure vacuum.

As for the shaking from a quake, why would one suspect a high-speed train – with its tracks directly mounted to the earth – is any less susceptible?

Maybe terrorists will completely ignore the opportunity to wreak tremendous havoc with a simple satchel charge at the right time. <snip>  It doesn't "sound kind of dangerous" It is ridiculously dangerous.

Bullet trains are no less a target. The tracks are exposed and, at least in CA's HSR proposal, require significant security fencing surrounding them, primarily to keep things off the tracks.

Did anyone else read the proposal Elon & Co. released?

[a_langwich]

I agree with Nomadd at the top level--I don't think the hyperloop will happen.  We probably differ on reasons why. 

An above-ground train, with few requirements other than grading the land and dropping cross-ties and two rails, hasn't been shown to be economic, except in a few areas of the country.  In NO areas of the country does it make sense financially when you include costs for acquisition of right-of-way.

Adding speed improves competitiveness with air travel, but greatly increases costs.

Adding speed and building the entire thing underground greatly increases costs beyond just high speed.

Trying to maintain even a mild vacuum over many miles while designing in branches and sidings and stations for a real-world transit system just multiplies the costs even further.

Maybe it would make more sense financially in Europe.

[Nomadd]

As for the shaking from a quake, why would one suspect a high-speed train – with its tracks directly mounted to the earth – is any less susceptible?


Bullet trains are no less a target. The tracks are exposed and, at least in CA's HSR proposal, require significant security fencing surrounding them, primarily to keep things off the tracks.

You really can't see any difference between a train going 150 mph and one going 800 mph?

[NovaSilisko]

Both will come at the same time, the first hyperloop will be constructed on mars. 

[llanitedave]

As for the shaking from a quake, why would one suspect a high-speed train – with its tracks directly mounted to the earth – is any less susceptible?


Bullet trains are no less a target. The tracks are exposed and, at least in CA's HSR proposal, require significant security fencing surrounding them, primarily to keep things off the tracks.

You really can't see any difference between a train going 150 mph and one going 800 mph?

Indeed.  A train wreck on the surface is a pretty horrifying sight, with cars scattered about and shattered.  But at least there you can bring in rescue squads and attend to the wounded fairly quickly.

What happens when the walls of the hyperloop tunnel suddenly shear and offset by several meters?  If a train is approaching when it happens, it won't go off rails, it will slam into the offset wall, essentially disintegrating into very small pieces.  In that way, it will be more like a jetliner crash.  Unlike a jetliner crash, though, you wonn't be able to send teams in to pick up the pieces or look for survivors, you'll have to excavate the tunnel before you can even know what happened.  So you not only have to replace your destroyed conveyance, you have to rebuild the route that it travels through.

Now I can't say this will be more or less risky overall than taking an airliner.  But it does look like the consequences of an accident will be more complicated and expensive.  Even if an accident is successfully avoided, there's still an expensive rebuilding job to do.  Airliner accidents don't normally close down the entire route.  An accident or physical failure in this case would lead to a long shutdown.

[go4mars]

If this was being considered for, say, one of the disputed Israel-Palestine areas....

It is. Google "hyperloop Isreal 2015".

[Misha Vargas]

Did anyone else read the proposal Elon & Co. released?

Apparently not.

[...]
Adding speed and building the entire thing underground greatly increases costs beyond just high speed.
[...]

[...]
What happens when the walls of the hyperloop tunnel suddenly shear and offset by several meters?  If a train is approaching when it happens, it won't go off rails, it will slam into the offset wall, essentially disintegrating into very small pieces [...] you'll have to excavate the tunnel before you can even know what happened.  So you not only have to replace your destroyed conveyance, you have to rebuild the route that it travels through.
[...]

[Coastal Ron]

What happens when the walls of the hyperloop tunnel suddenly shear and offset by several meters?

I'm not sure you're familiar with the forces at work here.  The tubes the cars ride in are under compression due to the pressure difference between the vacuum inside and the standard atmosphere on the outside.  There would have to be a heck of a lot of shear force in one spot in order to break open the tubes, and since the design that was initially suggested consisted of tubes on pylons, I don't see where any shear force would be coming in.

If a train is approaching when it happens, it won't go off rails, it will slam into the offset wall, essentially disintegrating into very small pieces.

Happens all the time on our nations highways, and even occasionally with passenger rail.  Accidents happen.

However Musk did address tube failures and said that once the vacuum is lost in the tubes that the cars automatically slow down because of air resistance (i.e. lack of vacuum).  No doubt they can also communicate with each car and have them automatically stop where they are in the system if need be.

But if there is a cataclysmic event that causes such a tube failure, chances are many other parts of the local transportation infrastructure will have also failed, probably with far higher loss of life, so I don't think too many people will be focused on just the Hyperloop system.

I have no idea whether any of the government or private entities that would benefit from a dedicated transportation system want to build a Hyperloop system, but I don't think they would have anymore concern over them than they would over other existing transportation systems.

[Oli]

Vactrains might happen at some point in the future, but they won't look like hyperloop.

The diameter of the tube will be bigger, with larger trains. The vacuum will be less perfect. The trains will go less fast. They will utilize Maglev. The tube will be built almost entirely underground.

[philw1776]

I'm pessimistic about Hyperloop for non-technical reasons. 
First, unlike Mars there is no Elon class figure driving the implementation 24/7.  Such focused leadership is required for paradigm breaking innovation. 
Secondly, HLoop is dependent on state and local political congruence. Totally uncontrollable even by excellent leadership.  All it takes is one or more special interest groups getting their noses bent out of shape and the program is derailed or delayed.  Delays cost $.  Costs escalate.

[Chris Bergin]

Sorry, we're not a site that covers Earth bound transportation systems. That's "www. ElonHyperloopAndNiceCars.com/forum"

Locked.