Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - Dragon - CRS-5/SpX-5 -Jan. 10, 2015 - DISCUSSION  (Read 618088 times)

Offline JasonAW3

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SpaceX hasn't blown up a rocket since Falcon 1 flight 3; historically you're very lucky if your first 5 launches of a new launch vehicle succeed, and they've developed two of them since F1 and launched each over 5 times successfully. They're doing something right. Some of that is testing the crap out of their rockets, some of it is intense monitoring of different subsystems (this last part is nothing new, of course).

It will take 100s of launches to get all these little bugs out, and they'll still happen. Frankly, given how many things have to go right for a launch to work, I'm always pleasantly surprised when a launch DOES go off without a hitch. (I admit Atlas V has done it enough times that I feel significantly less nervous, although it, too, has its glitches.)

SpaceX is competing against two launch providers that have a nearly spotless record of late. ULA and Ariane. One launch failure would set them back significantly (since they've only done 13 F9 launches, only 8 v1.1), so a launch failure for SpaceX would be more damaging statistically than it would for their competitors which have a much longer track record. So SpaceX has to be incredibly conservative with this stuff. A scrub makes no difference long term, but even a single launch failure may (even though it's bound to happen eventually if you launch 100s of times), as we saw with Antares.

Sorry, but they did have a flight abort with one of their older F9R's during flight tests.  But that's fine because they were testing it until it broke, then brought out the new version.
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Offline Hauerg

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...
Sorry, but they did have a flight abort with one of their older F9R's during flight tests.  But that's fine because they were testing it until it broke, then brought out the new version.
Abort? Must have missed that !?

Offline oiorionsbelt

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Sorry, but they did have a flight abort with one of their older F9R's during flight tests. 
Huh what "flight abort" ?  They shut down an engine and completed the primary mission. Was there another F9 anomaly I'm missing.

Offline punder

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Sorry, but they did have a flight abort with one of their older F9R's during flight tests. 
Huh what "flight abort" ?  They shut down an engine and completed the primary mission. Was there another F9 anomaly I'm missing.

Is he talking about the flight termination in Texas?

Offline FinalFrontier

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Unfortunate they did not go today, however as usual better safe than sorry. TVC drift not something you want to launch with ever. Hopefully its an easy fix and does not require physical work on  the actuator, however I won't be surprised at all if they have to exchange that actuator entirely. If work is required, would be interesting to see what damaged it, if anything (shipping error?). In any case would not be surprised if they could still make Friday even if they needed to install a new one. Rolling back the vehicle is not *that* time consuming after all.
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Offline Karloss12

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Unfortunate they did not go today, however as usual better safe than sorry. TVC drift not something you want to launch with ever. Hopefully its an easy fix and does not require physical work on  the actuator, however I won't be surprised at all if they have to exchange that actuator entirely. If work is required, would be interesting to see what damaged it, if anything (shipping error?). In any case would not be surprised if they could still make Friday even if they needed to install a new one. Rolling back the vehicle is not *that* time consuming after all.

Is the problem that the actuator has drifted from its defined position without knowing it?  Could it just be a case of re-calibrating the position?

Offline MTom

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Thanks to cartmann for the SpaceX Scrub thread!
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36507.0

It will be a good place for general discussion about scrubs (space is hard vs. high time for SpaceX growing up).

To Mods: If you feel useful, some posts from the last pages could be moved to there for a good start of the discussion.

Offline jg

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Guys, it's a new pretty new rocket; as many have pointed out, Falcon 1.1 is substantially different than Falcon 1.0.  And a rocket with more than the usual fraction of new components, since SpaceX found that many of the potential suppliers wanted excessive prices.

With the Antares explosion, Falcon is the only game in town for getting supplies to the ISS short of laying on an extra Progress flight, and NASA is SpaceX's biggest customer. I am am happy to see SpaceX being very cautious. Launch fever is one of the most common causes of loss of a rocket.

Now if the scrub rate continues this high in another year or two, I'll get concerned, as the economic premise of SpaceX has to minimize the long term capital expenses of a (partially) reusable rocket.  For Musk to get to Mars, the day of "gas and go" has to come.

Until then, I suggest we all "chill out" a bit about scrubs.

Offline Antares

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There would have to be a force physically causing the drift.  Recalibration would be insufficient without determining where that force is coming from then either eliminating it or determining it can be withstood in flight.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline Kabloona

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There would have to be a force physically causing the drift.  Recalibration would be insufficient without determining where that force is coming from then either eliminating it or determining it can be withstood in flight.

That's assuming there was actual physical drift as opposed to signal drift from a bad LVDT or other electronic component in the position feedback system. Also, since the actuator is fueldraulic, a leaky servovalve could also cause drift without external force being applied.

Don't know if they are still using this unit. May just need to replace the whole actuator.

http://jasc-controls.com/jasc-industry-listing/space/space-actuators/thrust-vector-control-actuator-part-101424-5/
« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 09:46 pm by Kabloona »

Offline Antares

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A bad LVDT would be even worse since it's part of control logic on any vehicle (can't do open loop control to a precise guidance target like ISS RDZ).  And if it's part of control logic and the F9 V1.1 is human-rated, it's triplicated.  If it's triplicated, all three LVDTs would be showing the drift.  I heard no equivocation in the press releases that sensors were in conflict.

QED
« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 09:48 pm by Antares »
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline Kabloona

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A bad LVDT would be even worse since it's part of control logic.  And if it's part of control logic and the F9 V1.1 is human-rated, it's triplicated.  If it's triplicated, all three LVDTs would be showing the drift.  I heard no equivocation in the press releases that sensors were in conflict.

QED

Then maybe leaky servovalve in the actuator?

(PS...don't know current state of the design, but the JASC spec sheet says dual-channel LVDT.)
« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 09:56 pm by Kabloona »

Offline mspacek

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Hopefully this is the most appropriate place to ask this. Sorry if it's been asked already:

The drone ship needs to be at a specific position for 1st stage recovery, but the ship isn't circularly symmetric. It has a long and a short axis. That gives it one degree of rotational freedom. What are people's thoughts on which way the ship will be oriented during landing? What would be most optimal?

My guess is, the most important thing will be to minimize rocking due to waves, and therefore the ship should be rotated so that the long axis points into the wind ("in irons" as some of us sailors like to say), or into the direction of the biggest waves. Being oriented into the wind would also give a little more room for error for the 1st stage (approx. +/- 150 feet vs +/- 85 feet) as it's pushed around by the wind during descent.

Offline Antares

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I haven't exactly been following the ASDS specs.  I would think it would point such that the motors can compensate for wind and current.  Unless the motors can thrust equally in all directions, then I would agree that the long axis of the deck would align with the wind.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline Ohsin

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Hopefully this is the most appropriate place to ask this. Sorry if it's been asked already:

The drone ship needs to be at a specific position for 1st stage recovery, but the ship isn't circularly symmetric. It has a long and a short axis. That gives it one degree of rotational freedom. What are people's thoughts on which way the ship will be oriented during landing? What would be most optimal?

My guess is, the most important thing will be to minimize rocking due to waves, and therefore the ship should be rotated so that the long axis points into the wind ("in irons" as some of us sailors like to say), or into the direction of the biggest waves. Being oriented into the wind would also give a little more room for error for the 1st stage (approx. +/- 150 feet vs +/- 85 feet) as it's pushed around by the wind during descent.

I haven't exactly been following the ASDS specs.  I would think it would point such that the motors can compensate for wind and current.  Unless the motors can thrust equally in all directions, then I would agree that the long axis of the deck would align with the wind.

We have thread for this!

Although I agree that orientation along waves/winds would be better as it would be easier to station keep (more agility less rocking), there is more margin of error for landing but could the ballistic trajectory of stage play in as well ? In OG2 video stage appeared a bit tilted but can't say if it was due to approach.
« Last Edit: 01/07/2015 04:33 am by Ohsin »
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Offline dorkmo

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on one of the first flights of falcon i think i remember the second stage spinning. was that caused by a drift issue? or was that something else? im a bit hazy on that.

Offline Comga

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on one of the first flights of falcon i think i remember the second stage spinning. was that caused by a drift issue? or was that something else? im a bit hazy on that.
That happened on both Falcon 1 (flight 2?) and Falcon 9 (flight 1?)  IIRC
The former was fuel sloshing unimpeded by any anti-slosh baffles after being instigated by the first stage hitting the second stage engine bell at staging.
The latter was due to the second stage roll control nozzle supply freezing
Neither had anything to do with the TVC, which does not do roll control in single engine operations.
My confidence is high that people will correct any and all errors in my recollections or undrestanding.
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Offline archipeppe68

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Crossing fingers for the next F9R launch attempt, here there are my updated contribution to the topic.

I wanna thanks all the folks who helped me to improve my graphics jobs...

Ciao
Giuseppe
« Last Edit: 01/07/2015 08:19 am by archipeppe68 »

Offline Oersted

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Grazie archipeppe, molto bello!

Offline archipeppe68

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Grazie archipeppe, molto bello!

Ti ringrazio per l'apprezzamento.

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