Author Topic: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try  (Read 16074 times)

Offline JohnFornaro

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Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« on: 09/26/2014 02:23 pm »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline antriksh

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #1 on: 09/26/2014 02:25 pm »
« Last Edit: 09/26/2014 02:28 pm by antriksh »
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #2 on: 09/26/2014 03:39 pm »
Took a peek at the "Live" section first.  No news on Mangalyaan there!  MAVEN has top billing.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline gwiz

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #3 on: 09/26/2014 04:01 pm »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #4 on: 09/26/2014 05:34 pm »
Sheesh.  ISRU, ISRO Can't keep track of all the acronyms!   Was searching for "Mangalyaan".
« Last Edit: 09/26/2014 05:35 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #5 on: 09/27/2014 01:25 pm »
Reposted here:

This article is another example of what I've been calling cognitive infiltration.  Here, the technique employed is known as "damning with faint praise".

http://io9.com/is-the-focus-on-indias-cheap-mission-to-mars-missing-1639082635

Quote from: the Kinja article
1) Okay, we get it — India's Mars Orbiter Mission was spectacularly cheap, costing less than the entire budget of the Hollywood movie Gravity. But is this really what we —and India — should be focusing on?

2) No doubt, this is a stunning achievement for India. ...

3) "Our program stands out as the most cost-effective," noted Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi back in June. "There is this story of our Mars mission costing less than the Hollywood movie Gravity... Our scientists have shown the world a new paradigm of engineering and the power of imagination."

4) Clearly, India is doing something right, and they deserve to be commended...

5) First, accounting standards are not the same across agencies such as ISRO and, say, [just to pick a USG Agency at random] NASA ...

6) The "cheapness" was forced upon ISRO because of earlier failures. ...

This is just the beginning... "That pay-off is long-term, and it cannot be easily quantified. But it is huge."

1) Absolutely, cost is the main thing that should be focused on.  This author has it entirely wrong in this regard.

Elon Musk has suggested a ticket price "to Mars", not to TMI], of $500K.  If there is to be permanent human settlement off planet, then cost is the driver.  Not technology.  Not the number of volunteers. (NSoV) Not country of origin.

2) It is a stunning achievement.  There's no other way to describe it.  It is a textbook example of how applied theory works.  At this time in humanity's directed evolution, aerospace information is cheap.  Use it correctly and appropriately, and you get a successful mission.

Still, past productivity is no indicator of future productivity.  They will have to carefully monitor egos so as to ensure the success of their second mission.

3) The "paradigm of engineering" speaks quietly to my observation of the low cost of information these days.

4) They do indeed, and not faintly, as this author insists in his opening words.

5) This is the worst part of the cognitive infiltration.  There's a lot of discussion here about how the USAF doesn't really know the cost of launching and AtlasV, due to the directed evolution of proprietary cost information.  The truth of the matter is that the simple equation is income minus revenue equals profit.  When income and profit are proprietary, the equation is irreparably broken.

Our tax and accounting system is, for practical purposes, such as colonizing Luna and Mars, an impediment to the accomplishment of those goals.

6) More cognitive infiltration.  There is no "forcing".  The "cheapness" is directly related to salaries.  Period.

As always, when a commentator wants to disparage a program it is called "cheap".  when the intent is to praise a program, it's called "cost effective".

On NPR this morning, they suggested that an Indian engineer makes about $1K per month, compared to the US engineer at $10K per month.  The fact of the matter is that when an Indian engineers sez "F=ma", it has the same value as when an American engineer sez "F=ma".

It is clinically interesting to see how the titans of US industry unanimously call for a virtual elimination of minimum wage here, sending their jobs overseas, yet whine bitterly when the rest of the world outperforms them on cost. 

Our titans pretend not to understand that Mangalyaan cost a tenth of MAVEN, and that salaries probably play the biggest role in that comparison.  Our aerospace titans will also compare MAVEN, built on a half century of experience with Mangalyaan, a first effort, and assert that it is a fair comparison.

Yay India. 

Solo dicendo.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline R7

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AD·ASTRA·ASTRORVM·GRATIA

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #7 on: 09/27/2014 02:35 pm »
http://io9.com/is-the-focus-on-indias-cheap-mission-to-mars-missing-1639082635

Blah blah, here's compressed version:



India for the win!

Hey!  I resemble that!  Yer late to the game.  See my OP.

"Yay India!" Fifty percent fewer (count 'em) words.
« Last Edit: 09/27/2014 09:10 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline R7

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #8 on: 09/27/2014 02:44 pm »
"Yay India!" Fifty percent (count 'em) words.

I opted the Entish way and took longer time to say it because it is worth taking a longer time to say.
AD·ASTRA·ASTRORVM·GRATIA

Offline sanman

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #9 on: 09/27/2014 07:24 pm »
In the heady days of the Apollo era, there were accompanying educational campaigns such as the one where schoolchildren were encouraged to come up with answers to the following:

"If we can land on the Moon, we can ________"


Well, likewise, with India's Mars orbiter Mission being so well-received by the Indian public, it could serve as an inspiration to countless youngsters to pursue dreams in engineering and science.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/opinion/indias-mars-shot.html?_r=0


Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #10 on: 09/27/2014 09:12 pm »
"Yay India!" Fifty percent fewer (count 'em) words.

I opted the Entish way and took longer time to say it because it is worth taking a longer time to say.

Sheesh.  Ya dinged me for being even more Entish than you (your uncompressed blah blah, blah argument) and then for being less Entish than you!  What's a guy gotta do around here to get some respect?
« Last Edit: 09/30/2014 12:46 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Moe Grills

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #11 on: 10/04/2014 04:54 pm »
   Slightly off topic: Does India have serious plans, with a formal plenary group started, to develop and fund a Mars lander within say 10 years?

I'm confident that some Indian spacecraft designer already has made a computerized model already in his/her  bonus time.

Offline antriksh

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #12 on: 10/04/2014 05:39 pm »
   Slightly off topic: Does India have serious plans, with a formal plenary group started, to develop and fund a Mars lander within say 10 years?

I'm confident that some Indian spacecraft designer already has made a computerized model already in his/her  bonus time.

Yes I would hope the next mission includes a orbiter +  lander/rover. The Mars feasibility study conducted by ISRO in 2011 looked into all the possible mission profiles. They studied all kind of missions possible using PSLV, GSLVmk2 and LVM3. Actually, different groups from PRL recently held a discussion on how to go ahead with proposals for various science payloads for MOM-2.
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline Star One

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Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #13 on: 10/04/2014 07:00 pm »
Reposted here:

This article is another example of what I've been calling cognitive infiltration.  Here, the technique employed is known as "damning with faint praise".

http://io9.com/is-the-focus-on-indias-cheap-mission-to-mars-missing-1639082635

Quote from: the Kinja article
1) Okay, we get it — India's Mars Orbiter Mission was spectacularly cheap, costing less than the entire budget of the Hollywood movie Gravity. But is this really what we —and India — should be focusing on?

2) No doubt, this is a stunning achievement for India. ...

3) "Our program stands out as the most cost-effective," noted Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi back in June. "There is this story of our Mars mission costing less than the Hollywood movie Gravity... Our scientists have shown the world a new paradigm of engineering and the power of imagination."

4) Clearly, India is doing something right, and they deserve to be commended...

5) First, accounting standards are not the same across agencies such as ISRO and, say, [just to pick a USG Agency at random] NASA ...

6) The "cheapness" was forced upon ISRO because of earlier failures. ...

This is just the beginning... "That pay-off is long-term, and it cannot be easily quantified. But it is huge."

1) Absolutely, cost is the main thing that should be focused on.  This author has it entirely wrong in this regard.

Elon Musk has suggested a ticket price "to Mars", not to TMI], of $500K.  If there is to be permanent human settlement off planet, then cost is the driver.  Not technology.  Not the number of volunteers. (NSoV) Not country of origin.

2) It is a stunning achievement.  There's no other way to describe it.  It is a textbook example of how applied theory works.  At this time in humanity's directed evolution, aerospace information is cheap.  Use it correctly and appropriately, and you get a successful mission.

Still, past productivity is no indicator of future productivity.  They will have to carefully monitor egos so as to ensure the success of their second mission.

3) The "paradigm of engineering" speaks quietly to my observation of the low cost of information these days.

4) They do indeed, and not faintly, as this author insists in his opening words.

5) This is the worst part of the cognitive infiltration.  There's a lot of discussion here about how the USAF doesn't really know the cost of launching and AtlasV, due to the directed evolution of proprietary cost information.  The truth of the matter is that the simple equation is income minus revenue equals profit.  When income and profit are proprietary, the equation is irreparably broken.

Our tax and accounting system is, for practical purposes, such as colonizing Luna and Mars, an impediment to the accomplishment of those goals.

6) More cognitive infiltration.  There is no "forcing".  The "cheapness" is directly related to salaries.  Period.

As always, when a commentator wants to disparage a program it is called "cheap".  when the intent is to praise a program, it's called "cost effective".

On NPR this morning, they suggested that an Indian engineer makes about $1K per month, compared to the US engineer at $10K per month.  The fact of the matter is that when an Indian engineers sez "F=ma", it has the same value as when an American engineer sez "F=ma".

It is clinically interesting to see how the titans of US industry unanimously call for a virtual elimination of minimum wage here, sending their jobs overseas, yet whine bitterly when the rest of the world outperforms them on cost. 

Our titans pretend not to understand that Mangalyaan cost a tenth of MAVEN, and that salaries probably play the biggest role in that comparison.  Our aerospace titans will also compare MAVEN, built on a half century of experience with Mangalyaan, a first effort, and assert that it is a fair comparison.

Yay India. 

Solo dicendo.

Did you point these out to io9?
« Last Edit: 10/04/2014 07:00 pm by Star One »

Offline sanman

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #14 on: 10/04/2014 09:42 pm »
   Slightly off topic: Does India have serious plans, with a formal plenary group started, to develop and fund a Mars lander within say 10 years?

I'm confident that some Indian spacecraft designer already has made a computerized model already in his/her  bonus time.

Yes I would hope the next mission includes a orbiter +  lander/rover. The Mars feasibility study conducted by ISRO in 2011 looked into all the possible mission profiles. They studied all kind of missions possible using PSLV, GSLVmk2 and LVM3. Actually, different groups from PRL recently held a discussion on how to go ahead with proposals for various science payloads for MOM-2.

Probably the Chandrayaan-2 lander mission would have to be done first. Then once that mission has validated some basic lander technology, a later MOM-2 lander mission would try to derive technologies for the much more complicated and difficult Mars EDL challenge.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #15 on: 10/06/2014 01:34 am »
Reposted here:

This article is another example of what I've been calling cognitive infiltration.  Here, the technique employed is known as "damning with faint praise", blah, blah, blah...

Did you point these out to io9?

Nahhh.  No point.  Online outfits like this sell clicks, not truth.

There's a half dozen peoiple on this site who read what I have to say, and they're my target audience.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline sanman

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Offline abhishek

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #17 on: 11/12/2014 09:29 am »
Quote
Appearing on a special show, along with all senior members of the entire Mangalyaan (Mars Mission) team, Dr Radhakrishnan said that ISRO had locked in a design of an Indian-made Martian lander and would soon be in a position to build a prototype. 

He added that Mangalyaan, the spacecraft which entered the orbit Mars orbit in September, was healthy and is now likely to remain operational for years, well beyond the six to ten months that had once been envisioned. ISRO scientists are looking at data received from the orbiter's sensors and say exciting new discoveries could be announced within two to three months.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india-s-first-manned-space-mission-in-2021-isro-chairman-to-ndtv-619855?pfrom=home-lateststories
10, 9, ignition sequence start 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, all engines running Lift off, we have a lift off, lift off

Offline sanman

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #18 on: 11/17/2014 07:29 pm »

Offline abhishek

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #19 on: 12/30/2014 11:15 am »
MOM marks 100 days on New Year, to live for years

Quote
As the world rings in the New Year on January 1 Indian space scientists will have another reason to uncork the champagne: The day will mark 100 days of the Mars Orbiter Mission (MOM) in the red planet's orbit.

What's more, MOM which was given a life span of 180 days may well continue to study Martian details for up to 15 years.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/science/MOM-marks-100-days-on-New-Year-to-live-for-years/articleshow/45682718.cms
10, 9, ignition sequence start 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, all engines running Lift off, we have a lift off, lift off

Offline savuporo

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #20 on: 12/30/2014 06:38 pm »
I think the title of this thread strongly indicates that the Great Galactic Ghoul is still digesting Beagle 2.

This is an awesome accomplishment from India, now lets see Chandrayaan-2 make it to 2016 !

Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Kosmos2001

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #21 on: 06/21/2017 12:00 pm »
Quote
ISRO's Mars Orbiter outlives original lifespan of 6 months, completes 1000 days in orbit

India's Mars Orbiter Mission (MOM) completed 1000 earth days in its orbit which is beyond its designed mission life.
Indian Space Research Organisation's maiden interplanetary mission was designated to last only for six months but it outlived its lifespan. MOM was launched on November 5, 2013 by PSLV-25 and it entered the Martian orbit on September 24,2014.
The mission's success received applause from across the world as it was able to enter the red planet's orbit in its first attempt and was cost-effective when compared to missions launched by NASA and the European Space Agency.

[…]

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/isro-mars-orbitor-mom-outlives-lifespan-six-months-completes-thousand-days/1/982246.html

Congratulations to ISRO and all the team for this fantastic achievement.

Offline TheVarun

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #22 on: 05/30/2018 04:16 pm »
 Mangalyaan has now( as of May 30/2018)  been in orbit for 3 years, 8 months and 6 days. Not bad for something that was originally projected to last 6 months!  Question for those with more detailed knowledge: Is the orbit of Mangalyaan novel i.e is this the first time a Mars satellite has been in such an orbit. I do remember reading somewhere that almost all Mars missions placed their respective satellites in a polar orbit, whereas Mangalyaan is in an ellipitical or equatorial path. And it thereby can provide full disk images of the planet.

And with the alteration of the orbit because of the eclipse, is this new orbit( more tilted toward the Sun, I believe)  also quite different, with images that are rare, if not novel?

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #23 on: 05/30/2018 04:46 pm »
Most other Mars orbiters had the role of mapping Mars at higher resolution than global full-frame images allow, and needed a near-polar orbit to provide global coverage.  You are right that this low inclination orbit is rare.  The Hope mission from UAE will also have a low inclination orbit.  The global-scale images, planet in a single frame, could still be obtained from a near-polar orbit if the periapsis is large (USSR's Mars 3).  MOM's images of the whole planet are beautiful and probably useful for mapping cloud and dust activity, though we have MARCI on MRO for that as well. 

Easy access to MOM images:

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2017/1003-mom-mcc-data-release-2.html

which links to:

https://planetary.s3.amazonaws.com/data/mom/mom_mcc.html
« Last Edit: 05/31/2018 05:03 pm by Phil Stooke »

Offline TheVarun

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #24 on: 05/31/2018 01:25 pm »
 Thank you Phil Stooke!  Nice to see well informed comments on the Mangalyaan. What prompted my query was reading some hideously awful  messages from years gone by on the Mars Orbiter. There are small, petty, jealous people out there who are belittling or dismissing the achievement of ISRO using specious and silly arguments.  A few, mercifully not many, are even Indian!

Offline Don2

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #25 on: 06/13/2018 11:12 pm »
The Indian orbiter should be in a good orbit for getting pictures of the current global dust storm. They might be better than the NASA ones because they are taken from a higher altitude. However, the pictures from this spacecraft seem to be quite infrequent and there is a long delay before release.

What is the chance that the Indians have taken a good picture of this storm? Will they wait a couple of years to release it?

Offline abhishek

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #26 on: 09/24/2018 01:12 am »
Mangalyaan completes four years orbiting Mars

Quote
India’s rendezvous with the red planet continues as its Mangalyaan (also known as Mars Orbiter Mission) completed four years in orbit on Sunday and in the process captured the seasonal variations of the planet for two Martian years.  For a mission which was originally conceived for only six months, it is an achievement that all the five payloads of it is still functioning well.

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/240918/mangalyaan-completes-four-years-orbiting-mars.html
10, 9, ignition sequence start 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, all engines running Lift off, we have a lift off, lift off

Offline TheVarun

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #27 on: 09/24/2018 05:20 am »
 ^Thanks Abhishek!  I was about to post a message about 4 exact years in orbit for Mangalyaan/MOM. What an achievement. I wish they had shown some more recent pics of Mars, the last one publicly shown was in March. It's about time for a new series!

Offline worldtimedate

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #28 on: 09/30/2018 12:47 am »
ISRO releases Mangalyaan's latest data

Quote
MOM completed four years in the Martianian Orbit on September 24. On Wednesday, ISRO Chairman K Sivan released third year observations (from September 24, 2016 to September 23, 2017) to the public. According to the ISRO, the first and second year data of MOM was released to public through Bengaluru-based Indian Space Data Center (ISSDC) website while on completion of second and third year in its orbit.

More than 2100 users have registered and downloaded around 620 GB data. Mars Colour Camera has acquired more than 980 images so far. Mars Atlas is available. Twenty three publications on MOM have been published in peer reviewed journals. ISRO said that Phobos and Deimos, the two moons of Mars were imaged from close distances and MOM is the only satellite, which could image the full disc of Mars in one shot and image the far side of Deimos.

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #29 on: 09/30/2018 05:55 am »
"ISRO said that Phobos and Deimos, the two moons of Mars were imaged from close distances"

I really hope this is true, and not just referring to what I would have called the distant shots we saw several years ago.  We very badly need new images of Deimos.  A significant chunk of Deimos, 25 to 30% of its surface, has only ever been seen in one image (therefore no stereo... a companion image was overexposed), resulting in a poor shape model, significant uncertainty in its volume and therefore its bulk density.  Believe it or not, one area near the north pole has never been seen in anything but a Mariner 9 image. 

Offline worldtimedate

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #30 on: 09/30/2018 06:12 am »
Here is the link of the MOM Data from ISRO website

Third year data of MOM released

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #31 on: 10/04/2018 09:21 pm »
OK, now I think that there are no new close range images of the satellites, based on comments by Emily Lakdawalla.  The statement about close range images is misleading.  The best images are the ones already seen early in the mission, and they are only around 20 pixels across at best.

Offline sanman

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #32 on: 10/22/2018 08:59 am »
In the spirit of the thread title, I thought I'd post this Bollywood-produced short film, funded by the Johnnie Walker company, maker of fine spirits (I think they were targeting the pub-going movie crowd with this)





This dramatized fictional depiction of events takes a lot of creative license, obviously. The fictitious space agency featured is called ISRA, however the actors used do bear decent resemblance to real-world people involved in ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission, such as K Radhakrishan, S Kiran Kumar, Nandini Harinath (although the fellow playing Mylswamy Annadurai doesn't look like him at all.)

Perhaps as India racks up some bigger space missions, and space grows in the public consciousness, then its film industries will naturally put out more space-related storyplots.

Go ISRA!  ;)
« Last Edit: 10/23/2018 06:08 am by sanman »

Offline sanjaykumar

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #33 on: 01/02/2019 05:10 am »
ISRO should outsource mission live coverage to Jonnie walker / bollywood and focus on stuff they do best. 

Offline chetan_chpd

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #34 on: 01/22/2019 06:06 am »
Space History: Old Newspaper Clips: Mangalyaan launch and Mars orbit insertion

I will be showcasing here some of my old newspaper clippings for Mangalyaan mission.
(https://www.chetansindiaspaceflight.com/2019/01/space-history-old-newspaper-clips.html)


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