Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION  (Read 199613 times)

Offline Kaputnik

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3091
  • Liked: 727
  • Likes Given: 840
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #300 on: 06/27/2017 08:34 am »
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

It seems very likely that SpaceX could easily solve the video dropout problem, if they thought it was actually a problem.
"I don't care what anything was DESIGNED to do, I care about what it CAN do"- Gene Kranz

Offline ugordan

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8560
    • My mainly Cassini image gallery
  • Liked: 3628
  • Likes Given: 775
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #301 on: 06/27/2017 08:37 am »
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

Then again, fishing boats usually rock slowly in the waves and their antennas don't have to cope with plume impingement from a rocket engine and resulting thrashing and vibrations at tens to hundreds of Hz frequency...

Offline JamesH65

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1574
  • Liked: 1752
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #302 on: 06/27/2017 09:55 am »
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

It seems very likely that SpaceX could easily solve the video dropout problem, if they thought it was actually a problem.

If they could fix it really easily, don't you think they would have already done it? They already spend quite a few $ getting that feed to where it is, even though it's really only of use to us, the viewers, if it really was an easy fix, it would be cheap, and probably already done.

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8823
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 306
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #303 on: 06/27/2017 10:11 am »
They could build one of these, I hear they are quite stable in heavy seas.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP_FLIP
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline cscott

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Liked: 2869
  • Likes Given: 726
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #304 on: 06/27/2017 01:23 pm »
Also, RP1 + LOX produces ionized gas - is this true?

High temperature + any gas = plasma (ionized gas)

"Electrons are free, the fourth state of matter, not solid, liquid, or gas" ... to quote an excellent song.

The RP1 and LOX have little to do with it.
« Last Edit: 06/27/2017 01:25 pm by cscott »

Offline Nomadd

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8894
  • Lower 48
  • Liked: 60677
  • Likes Given: 1333
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #305 on: 06/27/2017 03:25 pm »
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

Then again, fishing boats usually rock slowly in the waves and their antennas don't have to cope with plume impingement from a rocket engine and resulting thrashing and vibrations at tens to hundreds of Hz frequency...
Fishing boats move a helluva a lot more than that barge does. Plume impingement should be handled by having two dishes on opposite ends of the barge and picking a satellite that's not too vertical, or two different sats. I'm not sure what arrangements SpaceX has, but ships almost always have a few different satellites available because the dishes are hardly ever without an obstruction in some direction. You can program in obstructions like masts or superstructures and the controller will know not to try and acquire a blocked sat. If they know what direction the rocket will come in from, they could just program it and the plume as obstructions, or just manually pick a sat that won't be blocked.
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

It seems very likely that SpaceX could easily solve the video dropout problem, if they thought it was actually a problem.

If they could fix it really easily, don't you think they would have already done it? They already spend quite a few $ getting that feed to where it is, even though it's really only of use to us, the viewers, if it really was an easy fix, it would be cheap, and probably already done.
Those big Ku band dishes pretty much stay on target by being perfectly balanced. Tiny stepper motors keep them centered, but even unpowered, the dish stays stays pointing the same way for a while as the boat moves around.
 I'm still trying to find out if the vibration problem is through the mount or causes trouble directly through the dome.
« Last Edit: 06/27/2017 07:37 pm by Nomadd »
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37818
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 22048
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #306 on: 06/27/2017 03:50 pm »

AFAIK this is unique to SpaceX. This is a very clever solution to a problem unique to SpaceX. Most separations just drift away, and because saving the booster is not an issue, the second stage can fire as soon as it is clear and they don't care if the first stage gets burnt or damaged. SpaceX wants a good distance before the second stage fires and they also want to get this distance very quickly so they can rotate the first stage for the boost back burn. The pusher imparts some momentum to the second stage while slowing down the first stage a little. I know this is small potatoes, but I wonder if that little extra acceleration to the second stage is enough to compensate for the extra fuel used to carry the mass of the pusher mechanism.

Wrong takeaway and not a unique problem to SpaceX. The longer pusher rod is to ensure clearance of the MVac engine bell during staging and not for extra impulse for booster separation.  The push rod makes sure that the engine/second stage stays centered while clearing the interstage.
« Last Edit: 06/27/2017 03:50 pm by Jim »

Offline manoweb

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Tracer of rays
  • Hayward CA
  • Liked: 85
  • Likes Given: 84
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #307 on: 06/27/2017 06:04 pm »
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

Then again, fishing boats usually rock slowly in the waves and their antennas don't have to cope with plume impingement from a rocket engine and resulting thrashing and vibrations at tens to hundreds of Hz frequency...

No wait, you did not understand. The barge would have a non- or loosely directional antenna to transmit to a nerby boat, and that would have a satellite link. However, there is probably a simple explanation they are not doing it, and it is NOT that they cannot engineer one.

Offline Jcc

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1196
  • Liked: 404
  • Likes Given: 203
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #308 on: 06/28/2017 12:07 am »
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

Then again, fishing boats usually rock slowly in the waves and their antennas don't have to cope with plume impingement from a rocket engine and resulting thrashing and vibrations at tens to hundreds of Hz frequency...

No wait, you did not understand. The barge would have a non- or loosely directional antenna to transmit to a nerby boat, and that would have a satellite link. However, there is probably a simple explanation they are not doing it, and it is NOT that they cannot engineer one.

That explanation is that is not important enough a priority. They will have full quality video at multiple angles from the recordings. Telemetry tells them if the stage landed intact in near real time. There is no operational reason why they need perfect realtime video. Even for us spectators it adds to the drama if it cuts off briefly, and we anticipate the recordings like kids on Christmas Eve. Great fun!

Offline cscott

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Liked: 2869
  • Likes Given: 726
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #309 on: 06/28/2017 05:13 am »



 Those big Ku band dishes pretty much stay on target by being perfectly balanced. Tiny stepper motors keep them centered, but even unpowered, the dish stays stays pointing the same way for a while as the boat moves around.
 I'm still trying to find out if the vibration problem is through the mount or causes trouble directly through the dome.

I suspect the problem is not the low frequency heaving, but rather the high frequency high amplitude components: it is unusual for these sorts of vibrations to be coupled into the tracker, since usually a large boat is a quite good low-pass filter.

Offline envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8166
  • Liked: 6836
  • Likes Given: 2972
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #310 on: 06/28/2017 12:11 pm »
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

Then again, fishing boats usually rock slowly in the waves and their antennas don't have to cope with plume impingement from a rocket engine and resulting thrashing and vibrations at tens to hundreds of Hz frequency...

No wait, you did not understand. The barge would have a non- or loosely directional antenna to transmit to a nerby boat, and that would have a satellite link. However, there is probably a simple explanation they are not doing it, and it is NOT that they cannot engineer one.

That explanation is that is not important enough a priority. They will have full quality video at multiple angles from the recordings. Telemetry tells them if the stage landed intact in near real time. There is no operational reason why they need perfect realtime video. Even for us spectators it adds to the drama if it cuts off briefly, and we anticipate the recordings like kids on Christmas Eve. Great fun!

How are they getting live telemetry at landing? Does the booster have a satcom link? Or are the support ships relaying it?

Offline Nomadd

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8894
  • Lower 48
  • Liked: 60677
  • Likes Given: 1333
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #311 on: 06/28/2017 03:47 pm »


How are they getting live telemetry at landing? Does the booster have a satcom link? Or are the support ships relaying it?
Telemetry is mostly transmitted to ground stations. The only satcom I know of is Iridium radios, which can do 128k and would be good for selected results if not raw data. But it looks like Iridium might only be for GPS data.
 Maybe Iridium will give them free bandwidth once the new system is up.
 This is from the F9 user's guide.
« Last Edit: 06/28/2017 03:51 pm by Nomadd »
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline gongora

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10438
  • US
  • Liked: 14355
  • Likes Given: 6148
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #312 on: 06/29/2017 02:17 am »
Reddit user FellowHumanBean noticed an amendment to the FCC launch license for Bulgariasat:
Quote
SpaceX BulgariaSat liability insurance
I missed this at the time, but on June 16, the FAA modified SpaceX's liability insurance see LLS 17-101 for the BulgariaSat mission to $68MM, while other missions covered by the same license remain at $30MM.

Offline intrepidpursuit

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 721
  • Orlando, FL
  • Liked: 561
  • Likes Given: 405
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #313 on: 06/29/2017 03:37 pm »
Have we seen the final orbit yet? I'm still trying to figure out why this was a tough landing. It was a very light bird for GTO so unless it went to a really high energy orbit then the hard reentry was purposeful testing. Even so, seems like that upper stage probably had a lot of energy left.

Offline Jarnis

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1314
  • Liked: 832
  • Likes Given: 204
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #314 on: 06/29/2017 03:45 pm »
Have we seen the final orbit yet? I'm still trying to figure out why this was a tough landing. It was a very light bird for GTO so unless it went to a really high energy orbit then the hard reentry was purposeful testing. Even so, seems like that upper stage probably had a lot of energy left.

Yes. It was over 60 000km apogee, very super-synch.

Offline clegg78

  • I play KSP, so I know things about rockets and stuff... :)
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 121
  • Denver, CO
  • Liked: 92
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #315 on: 06/29/2017 03:51 pm »
Edit - sorry wrong rocket ;)   Damn spaceX and their rapid cadence its easy to get the landings mixed up.
« Last Edit: 06/29/2017 03:51 pm by clegg78 »
Buy the Ticket, Take the Ride - Hunter S Thompson

Offline joncz

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
  • Atlanta, Georgia
  • Liked: 299
  • Likes Given: 398
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #316 on: 06/29/2017 07:19 pm »
Reddit user FellowHumanBean noticed an amendment to the FCC launch license for Bulgariasat:
Quote
SpaceX BulgariaSat liability insurance
I missed this at the time, but on June 16, the FAA modified SpaceX's liability insurance see LLS 17-101 for the BulgariaSat mission to $68MM, while other missions covered by the same license remain at $30MM.

I think FellowHumanBean is reading backward and without context.

LLS 17-100, issued in February, required SpaceX to carry $160M in liability insurance
LLS 17-101, issued in March, requires SpaceX to carry $68M liability insurance for BulgariaSat-1 and $30M for subsequent launches.


Offline gongora

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10438
  • US
  • Liked: 14355
  • Likes Given: 6148
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #317 on: 06/29/2017 07:42 pm »
Reddit user FellowHumanBean noticed an amendment to the FCC launch license for Bulgariasat:
Quote
SpaceX BulgariaSat liability insurance
I missed this at the time, but on June 16, the FAA modified SpaceX's liability insurance see LLS 17-101 for the BulgariaSat mission to $68MM, while other missions covered by the same license remain at $30MM.

I think FellowHumanBean is reading backward and without context.

LLS 17-100, issued in February, required SpaceX to carry $160M in liability insurance
LLS 17-101, issued in March, requires SpaceX to carry $68M liability insurance for BulgariaSat-1 and $30M for subsequent launches.

LLS 17-100 and LLS 17-101 are licenses for different things.  LLS 17-101 (GTO launches) was issued in March, and then updated in June to specifically mention a different insurance rate for  Bulgariasat.  Other payloads already launched under LLS 17-101 before that update.

Offline Lars-J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6809
  • California
  • Liked: 8487
  • Likes Given: 5385
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #318 on: 06/30/2017 05:36 pm »
For those of you that have not seen it, here are some pictures showing how far this flight pushed the aluminum grid fins... Very close to failure: (Elon was not kidding)   https://imgur.com/a/WeILL

Online Chris_Pi

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 209
  • Wisconsin
  • Liked: 93
  • Likes Given: 100
Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #319 on: 06/30/2017 07:12 pm »
Looks like they've figured out just what the aluminum fins will put up with. And almost found out if the stage can tolerate losing a fin midflight.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0