Author Topic: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser  (Read 87066 times)

Online Coastal Ron

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #100 on: 09/15/2014 11:26 PM »
And the WSJ is reporting that "Boeing Takes Lead to Build Space Taxi."  It is from Andy Pasztor, so also take it with a grain of salt.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/boeing-takes-lead-to-build-space-taxi-1410820865

Quote
Boeing Co. appears positioned to beat out two smaller rivals for the bulk of a multibillion-dollar NASA contract to ferry astronauts to and from orbit, according to government and aerospace-industry officials.

The quote I find the most interesting is:

"The officials cautioned that a last-minute shift by NASA chief Charles Bolden, who must vet the decision, could change the result of the closely watched competition."

Seems like Andy Pasztor is setting up a scenario that if Boeing doesn't win it's because of political intervention, not because Boeing is not the better choice.  Nice job Andy, nice job.

Also, Mr. Pasztor included this comment that I thought was pretty funny:

"For virtually the first time in its history, NASA is also seeking to reduce risk and keep a lid on prices by maintaining competition involving a major program."

Sure there is truth to it, but it's just funny that it has to be mentioned as the exception, and not the rule.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline jongoff

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #101 on: 09/15/2014 11:52 PM »
That Pasztor article will sure look like a "Dewey Defeats Truman" article if Boeing doesn't come out on top tomorrow...

~Jon

Offline king1999

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #102 on: 09/15/2014 11:58 PM »
And the WSJ is reporting that "Boeing Takes Lead to Build Space Taxi."  It is from Andy Pasztor, so also take it with a grain of salt.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/boeing-takes-lead-to-build-space-taxi-1410820865

Quote
Boeing Co. appears positioned to beat out two smaller rivals for the bulk of a multibillion-dollar NASA contract to ferry astronauts to and from orbit, according to government and aerospace-industry officials.

The quote I find the most interesting is:

"The officials cautioned that a last-minute shift by NASA chief Charles Bolden, who must vet the decision, could change the result of the closely watched competition."

Seems like Andy Pasztor is setting up a scenario that if Boeing doesn't win it's because of political intervention, not because Boeing is not the better choice.  Nice job Andy, nice job.

Also, Mr. Pasztor included this comment that I thought was pretty funny:

"For virtually the first time in its history, NASA is also seeking to reduce risk and keep a lid on prices by maintaining competition involving a major program."

Sure there is truth to it, but it's just funny that it has to be mentioned as the exception, and not the rule.

This is clearly a plugged job to provide some cover for Boeing's failure to be selected.
Also Mr. Pasztor's last statement about competition is false. SpaceX and Orbital has been competing for the Cargo Service, unless you can classify it as a non-major program, which I disagree.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #103 on: 09/16/2014 12:06 AM »
So who has veto over Charlie and is going to use it??
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline friendly3

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #104 on: 09/16/2014 12:15 AM »
He also wrote :

Quote
Interviews with numerous space experts from industry, government and elsewhere—all of whom have been monitoring developments closely—reveal a growing consensus that Boeing is likely to emerge as the big winner to develop and operate the nation's replacement for the space-shuttle fleet, which was retired in 2011.

and this :

Quote
One of the two other bidders—SpaceX or Sierra Nevada Corp.—is expected to obtain a smaller contract as a second source, these experts said. SpaceX is in a very strong position to get the nod, the experts added.

So Pasztor's prediction is full award for Boeing and half award for SpaceX.
I would like it to be true and see SpaceX beat Boeing with half an award  ;D.
I would also like to know the names of those "experts".
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 12:15 AM by friendly3 »

Offline veblen

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #105 on: 09/16/2014 12:19 AM »
Going on record here before the awards that of the three competitors, Boeing is the least deserving to win. It has put the smallest amount of its own money into the project, preferring instead to let the USGov pay for the lion's share of its "Commercial" Crew  entry. The other two both committed much more of their own money, demonstrating a much greater commitment to the project than Boeing.

1. SNC brings a spacecraft to the table that is a true successor to Shuttle, with enormous cross range and far gentler re-entry g-stress. It is the only entry that is capable of returning payload or persons who desperately require a "gentle" return.

2. SpaceX brings a spacecraft that is actually designed for BEO missions but is capable of LEO service without wasting any of its true capabilities. It introduces a completely powered descent and landing, a true innovation. It also is capable of actually landing on both the lunar and Martian surfaces.

3. Boeing brings a spacecraft that is essentially an upgraded Apollo with air bag landing, its only innovative contribution.

While all three would be capable of providing crew rotation to the ISS, only Boeing has said that its Business Plan cannot close without a CCtCap win. That makes it the weaker of the three financially. Boeing's CST-100 is also the only entry that has not "flown". SpaceX's Dragon is actually providing cargo services to the ISS and DreamChaser has had an actual flight test, although unpowered. It has however, already paid for and scheduled its 1st space launch on an Atlas-V. Boeing has yet to show that level of commitment.

Selecting Boeing only would be rewarding indifference. A company with such scope and history could have done more, but declined to. I wouldn't be surprised if CttCap can be found to be a cypher for "charade", well we'll soon see, but sequestration again? jeepers

Offline king1999

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #106 on: 09/16/2014 12:19 AM »
I would also like to know the names of those "experts".

One of them is Loren Thompson?
LOL.

Offline erioladastra

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #107 on: 09/16/2014 12:39 AM »
Going on record here before the awards that of the three competitors, Boeing is the least deserving to win. It has put the smallest amount of its own money into the project, preferring instead to let the USGov pay for the lion's share of its "Commercial" Crew  entry. The other two both committed much more of their own money, demonstrating a much greater commitment to the project than Boeing.


I won't weigh in on the merits of any of the partners, but I will make something clear.  You folks have no idea how much any of the companies have really put in.  None.
« Last Edit: 09/19/2014 06:13 AM by Lar »

Offline dglow

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #108 on: 09/16/2014 12:46 AM »

Going on record here before the awards that of the three competitors, Boeing is the least deserving to win. It has put the smallest amount of its own money into the project, preferring instead to let the USGov pay for the lion's share of its "Commercial" Crew  entry. The other two both committed much more of their own money, demonstrating a much greater commitment to the project than Boeing.


---------------------

I won't weigh in on the merits of any of the partners, but I will make something clear.  You folks have no idea how much any of the companies have really put in.  None.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course. But please, learn how to quote properly.

TFTFY above.
(PM to learn how)
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 12:46 AM by dglow »

Offline FuseUpHereAlone

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #109 on: 09/16/2014 12:47 AM »
Going on record here before the awards that of the three competitors, Boeing is the least deserving to win. It has put the smallest amount of its own money into the project, preferring instead to let the USGov pay for the lion's share of its "Commercial" Crew  entry. The other two both committed much more of their own money, demonstrating a much greater commitment to the project than Boeing.

1. SNC brings a spacecraft to the table that is a true successor to Shuttle, with enormous cross range and far gentler re-entry g-stress. It is the only entry that is capable of returning payload or persons who desperately require a "gentle" return.

2. SpaceX brings a spacecraft that is actually designed for BEO missions but is capable of LEO service without wasting any of its true capabilities. It introduces a completely powered descent and landing, a true innovation. It also is capable of actually landing on both the lunar and Martian surfaces.

3. Boeing brings a spacecraft that is essentially an upgraded Apollo with air bag landing, its only innovative contribution.

While all three would be capable of providing crew rotation to the ISS, only Boeing has said that its Business Plan cannot close without a CCtCap win. That makes it the weaker of the three financially. Boeing's CST-100 is also the only entry that has not "flown". SpaceX's Dragon is actually providing cargo services to the ISS and DreamChaser has had an actual flight test, although unpowered. It has however, already paid for and scheduled its 1st space launch on an Atlas-V. Boeing has yet to show that level of commitment.

This isn't a technology development project; there is a very specific mission outlined.  If Boeing is selected, it'll be because they provide the system that's most likely to succeed at its job.  It's the simplest, most elegant system.  Full propulsive landing is not innovative, it's needlessly more complex than what the mission requires.  And the latest info we've heard is that SN is redesigning their launch abort system.
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 12:49 AM by FuseUpHereAlone »

Online Robotbeat

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #110 on: 09/16/2014 12:59 AM »
Don't think Boeing's is the simplest system. They have both abort motors and landing air bags. They and Dragon both use parachutes, but SpaceX has option of landing even if parachutes fail,
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline tesla

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #111 on: 09/16/2014 01:01 AM »
http://nasawatch.com/archives/2014/09/nasa-commercial-5.html

"There is still a chance that they will punt on this, folks. It has been delayed more than once already."

from nasa watch
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 01:02 AM by tesla »
Go SLS and Orion! God bless America.

Offline dglow

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #112 on: 09/16/2014 01:10 AM »
Lurio is now claiming WSJ is wrong.

Offline clongton

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #113 on: 09/16/2014 01:11 AM »
I won't weigh in on the merits of any of the partners, but I will make something clear.  You folks have no idea how much any of the companies have really put in.  None.


 ;D ok
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 01:11 AM by clongton »
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #114 on: 09/16/2014 01:27 AM »
While we all wait this seems fitting... :)

"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline yg1968

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #115 on: 09/16/2014 01:41 AM »
So who has veto over Charlie and is going to use it??

Bolden doesn't have veto power unless he is the selecting officer.
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 01:52 AM by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #116 on: 09/16/2014 01:43 AM »
I won't weigh in on the merits of any of the partners, but I will make something clear.  You folks have no idea how much any of the companies have really put in.  None.

In the CCiCap selection statement, it is specifically mentionned that Boeing has put very little of its own money. In a House Hearing, it was mentionned that on average, commercial companies have put 10% of the funding. So we have some idea.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #117 on: 09/16/2014 01:46 AM »
This might be why Boeing would be presumed by WSJ, etc., to be the leader in the competition.

"Boeing is the first, and thus far only one of the three competitors (including Sierra Nevada Corp. and SpaceX) to complete all their assigned milestone task requirements under NASA’s Commercial Crew Integrated Capability (CCiCap) initiative funded under the auspices of the agency’s Commercial Crew Program."
http://www.universetoday.com/114097/boeing-completes-all-cst-100-commercial-crew-ccicap-milestones-on-time-and-on-budget-for-nasa-ahead-of-competitors/
 
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #118 on: 09/16/2014 01:50 AM »
So who has veto over Charlie and is going to use it??

He doesn't have veto power. He is not the selecting officer.
From that WSJ article:

"The officials cautioned that a last-minute shift by NASA chief Charles Bolden, who must vet the decision, could change the result of the closely watched competition."

So what does that mean?
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline yg1968

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Re: CCtCap: NASA won’t abandon Commercial Crew loser
« Reply #119 on: 09/16/2014 01:54 AM »
So who has veto over Charlie and is going to use it??

He doesn't have veto power. He is not the selecting officer.
From that WSJ article:

"The officials cautioned that a last-minute shift by NASA chief Charles Bolden, who must vet the decision, could change the result of the closely watched competition."

So what does that mean?

It means that Pasztor is making up stuff again.
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 01:55 AM by yg1968 »

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