Author Topic: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"  (Read 9771 times)

Offline psloss

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Feel free to merge with appropriate thread(s); I saw it at NASAWatch first, but it's being picked up elsewhere:
http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2006/07/gao_has_doubts.html


Offline Norm Hartnett

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #1 on: 07/27/2006 08:55 PM »
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06817r.pdf

"We are recommending that the NASA Administrator modify the current CEV acquisition strategy to ensure that the agency does not commit itself, and in turn the federal government, to a long-term contractual obligation prior to establishing a sound business case at the project's preliminary design review. In written comments, NASA nonconcurred with our recommendation and stated that it has the appropriate level of knowledge to proceed with its current acquisition strategy. As a result of its nonconcurrence, we are including as a matter for congressional consideration that the Congress should consider restricting NASA's appropriations and obligations for the CEV project to only the amount of funding necessary to successfully complete the project's preliminary design review."
“You can’t take a traditional approach and expect anything but the traditional results, which has been broken budgets and not fielding any flight hardware.” Mike Gold - Apollo, STS, CxP; those that don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it: SLS.

Offline mong'

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #2 on: 07/27/2006 09:29 PM »
Quote
Norm Hartnett - 27/7/2006  10:42 PM

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06817r.pdf

. As a result of its nonconcurrence, we are including as a matter for congressional consideration that the Congress should consider restricting NASA's appropriations and obligations for the CEV project to only the amount of funding necessary to successfully complete the project's preliminary design review."

that's a joke right ?

Offline selden

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #3 on: 07/27/2006 09:52 PM »
The GAO doesn't have a sense of humor.
That's what the document says.

[edit]
Note that the report does say on page 9 that
Quote
...limiting the scope of the CEV contract would allow both NASA and Congress to assess the project's progress at the preliminary design review and to decide if continued investment in the project is prudent and in the best interest of the government.
[/edit]
Selden

Offline Chris Bergin

Well, if you ask around, you'll find more people against the VSE than are for it. I don't know if that's traditional, and I'll only go on facts and documentation.

They sure have major issues (mainly costs) to overcome, but we'll see. They'll be a few twists and turns to come, for sure.

Offline zinfab

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #5 on: 07/27/2006 11:57 PM »
well, bean counters take issue with the approach.

is NASA supposed to be a 'steady jobs' program or not? ;)

The article commentary is at least targeted at the right weaknesses in the current plan. I wonder if NASA's plan is completely unflyable, though. Wish NASA could be allowed to make "right" decisions.

Offline Norm Hartnett

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RE: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #6 on: 07/28/2006 02:17 AM »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 27/7/2006  4:55 PM

Well, if you ask around, you'll find more people against the VSE than are for it. I don't know if that's traditional, and I'll only go on facts and documentation.

They sure have major issues (mainly costs) to overcome, but we'll see. They'll be a few twists and turns to come, for sure.

What the report is questioning is the NASA implementation of the VSE, not the VSE itself.
“You can’t take a traditional approach and expect anything but the traditional results, which has been broken budgets and not fielding any flight hardware.” Mike Gold - Apollo, STS, CxP; those that don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it: SLS.

Offline publiusr

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #7 on: 08/18/2006 08:45 PM »
The folks who hate VSE are

Bomb-disposal robots on Mars fans
GAO space-haters (Proxmire types)
Libertarian frauds
EELV hucksters

On the pro VSE side, we have the author of this work:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1563475391/104-4516873-9013515?n=283155
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_D._Griffin

No contest.


Offline Jim

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #8 on: 08/19/2006 12:16 AM »
don't lump me in  the VSE haters group.  I am pro EELV, pro small Delta II spacecraft and pro VSE.  I am anti ESAS

Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #9 on: 08/20/2006 04:11 AM »
Quote
publiusr - 18/8/2006  4:32 PM

The folks who hate VSE are

Bomb-disposal robots on Mars fans
GAO space-haters (Proxmire types)
Libertarian frauds
EELV hucksters

On the pro VSE side, we have the author of this work:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1563475391/104-4516873-9013515?n=283155
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_D._Griffin

No contest.


Why do libertarians get blamed for things people don't like?  

I am not anti VSE or ESAS, I am pro, Lets go somewhere with all this money.  I think we have done enough laps in LEO.  

As for the implementation, it looks like the CLV is going to be more trouble (and money) that its worth.  When there are viable options.  But for political reasons (i.e. saving government jobs, and that is where the money goes) the more expensive and work intensive options seem favored.

If Griffin the cold blooded spock type that he claims to be he would be objective (if he has the power) in CLV selection.  Just say, give me the best most cost effective way to get the CEV into orbit and I don't care who builds it or what it looks like.
Needing a copy of 'Tales of Suspense #39'

Offline rsp1202

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #10 on: 08/20/2006 04:00 PM »
Griffin can set the course (which remains to be seen), but not by himself. The next administrator will have to sustain the vision. He better be MacGyver.
Then again . . .
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4106877971835476447

Offline J Britt RSA

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #11 on: 08/22/2006 10:32 PM »
"Libertarian frauds"

I would define that as someone who espouses Libertarian rhetoric but then turns around and supports the Republican Party on virtually everything from The War on Terror to tax cuts for the wealthy.

As for space - i'm just about pro-anything for space that bend tin and puts something up there. Reguardless ~who~ built it.

Offline publiusr

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #12 on: 08/22/2006 11:13 PM »
Quote
Jim - 18/8/2006  7:03 PM

don't lump me in  the VSE haters group.  I am pro EELV, pro small Delta II spacecraft and pro VSE.  I am anti ESAS

As long as you support Ares V or Magnum at the least. I'm pro-ESAS.

O'Keefe is gone--you're just mad about that. He wasn't a spacecraft designer--Griffin is. So this joe-Q six-pack choses to support him.

Offline J Britt RSA

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #13 on: 08/23/2006 12:10 AM »
Quote
Norm Hartnett - 27/7/2006  3:42 PM

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06817r.pdf

"We are recommending that the NASA Administrator modify the current CEV acquisition strategy to ensure that the agency does not commit itself, and in turn the federal government, to a long-term contractual obligation prior to establishing a sound business case at the project's preliminary design review. In written comments, NASA nonconcurred with our recommendation and stated that it has the appropriate level of knowledge to proceed with its current acquisition strategy. As a result of its nonconcurrence, we are including as a matter for congressional consideration that the Congress should consider restricting NASA's appropriations and obligations for the CEV project to only the amount of funding necessary to successfully complete the project's preliminary design review."

Correct me if i'm mistaken, but...wasn't this pretty much the same GAO reccomendations made while Shuttle was in development?

And the Space Exploration Inititative?

And NASA Space Station Merger with the Russians?

Seems the GAO is caught in some kind of a temporal loop or some such.

Offline Jim

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #14 on: 08/23/2006 01:20 AM »
Quote
publiusr - 22/8/2006  7:00 PM

O'Keefe is gone--you're just mad about that. He wasn't a spacecraft designer--Griffin is. So this joe-Q six-pack choses to support him.

Griffin will be gone soon and so will his bad decisions

Offline kraisee

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #15 on: 08/24/2006 01:32 AM »
He's been the best thing to happen to NASA in 30 years.   He's turning the whole organisation around to face the direction America stupidly quit facing 30 years ago.   The moon has been nothing but a pipedream since Apollo.

Griffin is the first of 8 NASA Administrators in the last three decades with the engineering and management backgrounds to understand what such a technical venture this really is.   He's the closes thing NASA has had to von Braun since he left us.   Further, he has the serious drive himself to really make dang sure it really happens.

He's America's last chance to continue leading the space nations of the world IMHO.   Lose him, and I believe the VSE dies a death and America.   At that point I guarantee it will be the next generation of Americans who will re-consider the dream of returning to the moon again.

China and India would both do it in a cake-walk before the US in that case and America's current lead will just be relegated to being an expensive second-tier.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Offline Jim

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #16 on: 08/24/2006 02:03 AM »
Fletcher, Truly, Dan were all engineers and managers.  webb wasn't yet he got the job done.

Offline J Britt RSA

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #17 on: 08/24/2006 03:15 AM »
Webb was a very well astute manager and as well as a political mover in Washington DC for long enough to know where the bodies were buried.

There's an excellent biography about him called "The Man Who Ran The Moon" by Pierz Bizony. I highly reccomend it.

Offline stargazer777

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #18 on: 08/24/2006 03:59 AM »
I used to work for GAO -- and it is basically a good agency doing the job no body likes of telling people the bad news.  However, I must tell you that it is basically run by accountants -- with all their strengths and limitations.  Nice people but not long on imagination and definitely lacking a sense of adventure.  I can see many possible grounds for criticising the VSE but waiting for the technology to firm up before proceeding and building a "business case" for exploration means never going -- never getting off the ground.  GAO clearly doesn't get that.  It is just that simple.

Offline stargazer777

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Re: "GAO Has Doubts About Griffin's VSE Implementation"
« Reply #19 on: 08/24/2006 04:00 AM »

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