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#560 by acsawdey on 08 Sep, 2016 15:10
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I think what this means is that they are energy density limited by this solution. Unless battery tech improves to increase the density from the same number (ie., mass) of batteries, they can't energize larger pumps to feed fuel to much larger engines without a quite serious mass penalty. This probably means they need to move to old school turbopumps if the vehicle is to evolve.
That's been the consistent opinion -- electric pumps only work out for small engines because it's difficult and expensive to design really small gas turbines for conventional turbopumps. It might not be any more difficult or expensive than designing a large turbine, but if the cost doesn't scale down with engine size it becomes a problem. Even in this application the batteries are on the edge of being worth it -- weight of the PT6A turboshaft engine is given as 122kg and there is a version of that which has output over 1MW. Of course you need a generator too. If it only needs to run 3 minutes, SFC is given as 0.408 kg/kW*hr which amounts to about 20kg of fuel. It would need to be made to work on RP-1+GOX. Of course it's likely batteries are at least one order of magnitude cheaper than this, possibly two (comparing using a PT6+generator vs a big pile of batteries). -
#561 by savuporo on 08 Sep, 2016 16:40
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Of course it's likely batteries are at least one order of magnitude cheaper than this, possibly two (comparing using a PT6+generator vs a big pile of batteries).
Its not just that a cost of buying or manufacturing a well engineered battery pack is much lower, but operational cost of building and testing rockets with electric pumps will likely work out much lower.
And suppliers, engineering services and available talent for power electronics are somewhat more widely available than turbo-machinery, so ongoing iterations and improvements can likely be done at lower cost. For a startup, this can make all the difference in actually closing their business case. Once on the path of scaling up the company the equation might change.
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#562 by TrevorMonty on 08 Sep, 2016 16:55
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For some of smaller LV <$50kg that are using pressure fed engines, electric pumps make logic next step. Even more so if there is an off the shelf electric motor/battery combination available.
I'd be surprised if Rocket labs, suppliers weren't already pushing there wares with other LV startups.
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#563 by jongoff on 09 Sep, 2016 04:04
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For some of smaller LV <50kg that are using pressure fed engines, electric pumps make logic next step. Even more so if there is an off the shelf electric motor/battery combination available.
I'd be surprised if Rocket labs, suppliers weren't already pushing there wares with other LV startups.
RocketLabs aren't the only ones doing electro-pumped rockets. Ventions has been working on them since before I left Masten to start Altius in 2010. It's a generally good idea, but would really be augmented if someone could figure out a lightweight, efficient way of tapping a tiny bit of jet power in an MHD generator. I saw some good ideas on how to potentially make that work, but not running a rocket company, I've never had a chance to try them.
~Jon -
#564 by savuporo on 09 Sep, 2016 04:37
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For some of smaller LV <50kg that are using pressure fed engines, electric pumps make logic next step. Even more so if there is an off the shelf electric motor/battery combination available.
I'd be surprised if Rocket labs, suppliers weren't already pushing there wares with other LV startups.
RocketLabs aren't the only ones doing electro-pumped rockets. Ventions has been working on them since before I left Masten to start Altius in 2010. It's a generally good idea, but would really be augmented if someone could figure out a lightweight, efficient way of tapping a tiny bit of jet power in an MHD generator. I saw some good ideas on how to potentially make that work, but not running a rocket company, I've never had a chance to try them.
~Jon
Uh .. i thought that this would be completely way out there, but because there are hypersonics weap^H^H^H flight research programs of course someone has tried something like this:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.5370/JICEE.2014.4.3.192
"Comparison of Generator Performance of Small-Scale MHD Generators with Different Electrode Dispositions and Load Connection Systems" -
#565 by jongoff on 09 Sep, 2016 06:14
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For some of smaller LV <50kg that are using pressure fed engines, electric pumps make logic next step. Even more so if there is an off the shelf electric motor/battery combination available.
I'd be surprised if Rocket labs, suppliers weren't already pushing there wares with other LV startups.
RocketLabs aren't the only ones doing electro-pumped rockets. Ventions has been working on them since before I left Masten to start Altius in 2010. It's a generally good idea, but would really be augmented if someone could figure out a lightweight, efficient way of tapping a tiny bit of jet power in an MHD generator. I saw some good ideas on how to potentially make that work, but not running a rocket company, I've never had a chance to try them.
~Jon
Uh .. i thought that this would be completely way out there, but because there are hypersonics weap^H^H^H flight research programs of course someone has tried something like this:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.5370/JICEE.2014.4.3.192
"Comparison of Generator Performance of Small-Scale MHD Generators with Different Electrode Dispositions and Load Connection Systems"
The work I was looking at was some old Soviet research I stumbled on a few years ago. Very clever, but when the USSR collapsed, that line of research more or less ground to a halt and disbanded. Very different than any of the concepts from that paper. Potentially a lot more relevant for MHD power extraction in a rocket nozzle, the challenge is just keeping the jet conductivity high enough to extract a useful amount of power. You'd only need 0.25-0.5% of the jet power to get enough power to run staged-combustion equivalent chamber pressures....
but this is only tangentially related to RocketLabs, which while using electric pump-fed rockets, didn't sound like they were looking for anything fancier. They just want to get their rocket into revenue service.
~Jon -
#566 by CameronD on 09 Sep, 2016 07:58
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......
but this is only tangentially related to RocketLabs, which while using electric pump-fed rockets, didn't sound like they were looking for anything fancier. They just want to get their rocket into revenue service.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves, shall we? First they have to get it off the pad in one piece.
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#567 by savuporo on 09 Sep, 2016 21:26
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If we have two batteries operating at 90 seconds each, then the required C rating of each battery pack needs to double to 40. I couldn't find any batteries with that high a C rating. Maximum seems to be C = 25.
Just to show that this exists : one source . second source. A123 LiFePO cells were kind of the first to market with insane discharge rates, but others have followed, and pack construction and engineering has kind of evolved slowly too.
EDIT: and of course, there are people out there that review and test these things for living. A shootout between some high powered battery packs :
http://www.bigsquidrc.com/lipo-battery-shootout-4-voltage-under-load/
They are of course more inefficent and lose capacity under heavy load, but demonstrably you can pull pretty insane amps from them for short time. -
#568 by high road on 09 Sep, 2016 22:33
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......
but this is only tangentially related to RocketLabs, which while using electric pump-fed rockets, didn't sound like they were looking for anything fancier. They just want to get their rocket into revenue service.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves, shall we? First they have to get it off the pad in one piece.
And then track it so they can prove it reached space ;-) -
#569 by savuporo on 10 Sep, 2016 23:05
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And now, for something completely different
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/84057531/Airways-hopes-Rocket-Lab-launch-will-be-first-of-manyQuoteState-owned Airways and New Zealand space company Rocket Lab and have signed a deal to ensure regular rocket launches from the country can be safe.
The agreement would see Airways provide air traffic services for Rocket Lab's test and commercial rocket launches from the world's first private orbital launch site on Mahia Peninsula, on the East Coast south of Gisborne
Airways chief operating officer Pauline Lamb said the agreement provided Rocket Lab with another piece to its rocket puzzle.
The two organisations had worked together for 18 months to develop a "special use airspace" which minimised impact on others, but still allowed Rocket Labs what it wanted to do. -
#570 by savuporo on 16 Sep, 2016 18:37
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Whatever is being sold, I'd buy this just because of accent.
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#571 by ringsider on 16 Sep, 2016 20:55
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I found a slide deck via Google with some very recent shots / details that I don't think have been made public before:-
http://usgif.org/system/uploads/4606/original/ROCKET_LAB_INTRO_USGIF.pdf
e.g.
- 120 employees now, 25% PhD
- S1 has a separate power pack at 1M watts
- Apogee kick motor
- 5 sites incl tracking station
- photos of factory and production line
EDIT: Some interesting details in those images, I don't think they realized they were showing the failed engine store...
Also the engine serial number are interesting as I think they are by year e.g. 1513 = 2015 #13 and 1668 = 2016 #68. So - if that is correct, and it's not just the sequence # of the next part off the printer - by mid-April this year they had produced ~68 3D printed engine chambers, roughly 20 a month. I know they work with Arcam, so if they have 2-3 Arcam Q20 machines that sounds about right, each chamber will be a 3 day print approximately. Also makes sense since they need 10 per vehicle plus numerous test/demo articles.
Also is that a battery module is shown as a separate unit? Or is it an interstage?
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#572 by Kryten on 17 Sep, 2016 15:12
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RocketLab have signed a contract with the NZ government to authorise the initial test launches;Quote
Rocket Lab, a US-domiciled company founded by New Zealander Peter Beck, intends to start its launch operations from the Mahia Peninsula later this year. These operations will include the first commercial space launches from New Zealand.
The contract with Rocket Lab is an important milestone in the development of a New Zealand-based space industry.
It is an interim measure to allow Rocket Lab to commence launching rockets before the Bill establishing a regulatory regime comes into force.
The Outer Space and High Altitude Activities Bill is expected to be introduced into The House on 22 September and the Government will be seeking to have it passed into law by mid-2017. The Bill facilitates the development of a space industry and its safe and secure operation that meets our international obligations, including the Technology Safeguards Agreement (TSA), recently signed with the United States.
The TSA is a bilateral treaty between the New Zealand and United States Governments to enable the use and secure management of US rocket and satellite technology in New Zealand. It allows commercial entities, including Rocket Lab, to import launch technology and satellites from the US. In terms of its broader international obligations, New Zealand is committed to the peaceful and responsible use of space.
The contract provides the mechanism by which to authorise Rocket Lab’s space activities to be conducted from New Zealand; to manage Government’s liability under the United Nations Liability Convention, and to implement New Zealand's obligations under the TSA, enabling it to enter into force.
The contract is consistent with the draft Bill. Once the Bill becomes law, Rocket Lab will transition to the new regime and the Government can choose to terminate the contract.
Before launching, Rocket Lab needs to obtain a license from the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) so it can conduct its space launch activities in New Zealand. -
#573 by Prober on 17 Sep, 2016 15:36
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this is interesting, maybe Jim -others can chime in on this...
Can be encapsulated by the customer, is this new?
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#574 by ringsider on 17 Sep, 2016 15:51
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Can be encapsulated by the customer, is this new?
No, not new, but it shows that military/intelligence applications are in the busines plan. -
#575 by ringsider on 17 Sep, 2016 16:06
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Before launching, Rocket Lab needs to obtain a license from the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) so it can conduct its space launch activities in New Zealand.
I said a this a few weeks ago - they are still some way away from launch if they do not have a launch licence yet, and there is nothing on the active list:-
https://www.faa.gov/data_research/commercial_space_data/licenses/
Note that the launch site operation itself will need a licence as well, so that is two processes. I doubt they could get a license until it was fully equipped.
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#576 by edkyle99 on 17 Sep, 2016 17:58
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Why would they need an FAA license to launch from New Zealand?Before launching, Rocket Lab needs to obtain a license from the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) so it can conduct its space launch activities in New Zealand.
I said a this a few weeks ago - they are still some way away from launch if they do not have a launch licence yet, and there is nothing on the active list:-
https://www.faa.gov/data_research/commercial_space_data/licenses/
Note that the launch site operation itself will need a licence as well, so that is two processes. I doubt they could get a license until it was fully equipped.
- Ed Kyle -
#577 by ringsider on 17 Sep, 2016 18:34
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Quote
Why would they need an FAA license to launch from New Zealand?
Rocket Lab are now a US company, and the range is actually a US range operating on NZ soil under US regulations as part of the TSA (Technology Safeguards Agreement) signed by the NZ government.
Because they are now a US company, the USA has control of the range, operations, launcher and payload regulation and licencing, as well as ITAR/EAR/MTCR jurisdiction on US parts/tech/know-how (it had that in any case as ITAR follows the parts).
Here's some detail on the TSA between NZ and USA:-
https://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-NZ/00DBSCH_ITR_69357_1/a547a574617eef61024ddd01b00c797a1f01229a
And the actual agreement:
http://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/sectors-industries/space/pdf-library/technology-safeguards-agreement-US.pdf
The purpose of this Agreement is to preclude unauthorized access to or transfer of technologies associated with the launching from New Zealand of:
a. U.S. Launch Vehicles;
b. U.S. Spacecraft by means of U.S. Launch Vehicles;
c. Foreign Spacecraft by means of U.S. Launch Vehicles; and
d. N.Z. Spacecraft by means of U.S. Launch Vehicles.
There are some tough clauses on access control in there:
The Government of New Zealand shall permit N.Z. Representatives to participate in unloading vehicles transporting U.S. Launch Vehicles, U.S. Spacecraft, Related Equipment or Technical Data, and delivering sealed containers to the segregated areas referred to in Article IV, paragraph 3 and to the U.S. Launch Vehicle and U.S. Spacecraft preparation areas only if they are under the supervision of U.S. Participants. The Government of New Zealand shall not permit N.Z. Representatives access to the segregated areas referred to in Article IV, paragraph 3 or to the U.S. Launch Vehicle or U.S. Spacecraft preparation areas for any purpose while U.S. Launch Vehicles, U.S. Spacecraft, or any Related Equipment is being assembled, installed, tested, prepared and/or integrated unless they are escorted at all times by U.S. Participants or are specially authorized by the Government of the United States of America
This basically means even Peter Beck can't see his vehicles unsupervised unless he naturalizes or gets "special authorization".
Electron is a US launch vehicle, even if assembled in NZ; in the slide deck it says the HQ is in USA. Big chunks are made in the USA and major ITAR-controlled components probably come from there too. Beck had little choice but to become a US corporation to get the Silicon Valley VC money and the key components, like LOX-tolerant CFRP which comes from TenCate, a US corporation, or a FOG.
By the way I have zero connection to RL, you can find all this and much more on the internet. -
#578 by Prober on 17 Sep, 2016 19:04
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delete this if its old....
A Career at Rocket Lab
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#579 by edkyle99 on 17 Sep, 2016 23:53
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The purpose of this Agreement is to preclude unauthorized access to or transfer of technologies associated with the launching from New Zealand of:
It isn't a U.S. launch vehicle. It is designed in New Zealand, developed in New Zealand, tested in New Zealand, built in New Zealand, and will be launched in New Zealand by New Zealand citizens. I've never read about the "big chunks" of U.S. hardware that you mentioned. The company's U.S. presence (an office in an office park) is, in my view, only due to the source of some venture capital.
a. U.S. Launch Vehicles;
b. U.S. Spacecraft by means of U.S. Launch Vehicles;
c. Foreign Spacecraft by means of U.S. Launch Vehicles; and
d. N.Z. Spacecraft by means of U.S. Launch Vehicles. [/i]
Perhaps all of those U.S. regulations apply, but I can't for the life of me see why. It would be like the FAA regulating all Proton launches in Kazakhstan because International Launch Services (a Russian-owned company) has an office in Virginia.
- Ed Kyle