Author Topic: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video  (Read 160649 times)

Online abaddon

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #280 on: 08/06/2014 07:09 PM »
As per above, we already know it was a genuine screw-up:

Quote
@jeff_foust  12 min.
Jurvetson said the video had been shot from aircraft, though a glitch caused the vehicle to go out of frame around touchdown. #smallsat2014

Offline MTom

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #281 on: 08/06/2014 08:25 PM »
Looks like this is the PG-13 version - the camera fades out before the shocking and graphic RUD.

Oh, you have right!
And the whole leg-deployment (inclusive start of landing burn) also missing!


Offline edkyle99

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #282 on: 08/06/2014 11:56 PM »
Talk about coming in hot! She's really moving.
Moving, but decelerating too and under control, which all makes this such an usual sight.  I also suspect that camera movement may have made the stage appear to be moving faster than it really was when it broke through the clouds.

As for the question of whether or not this particular video cameraman simply messed up and missed the final result, that I think is beside the point.  SpaceX, surely, has better engineering video of the entire event.  Perhaps it will release the original of this one that conveniently misses the end.  Perhaps not.  But I doubt it will release the fully detailed video or videos that show everything.   

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 08/07/2014 11:35 AM by Chris Bergin »

Online e of pi

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #283 on: 08/07/2014 02:35 AM »
As for the question of whether or not this particular video cameraman simply messed up and missed the final result, that I think is beside the point.  SpaceX, surely, has better engineering video of the entire event.  Perhaps it will release the original of this one that conveniently misses the end.  Perhaps not.  But I doubt it will release the fully detailed video or videos that show everything.
Ed, they've released segments or stills from a video of this quality twice, both times stated to be from a plane in the area. My suspicion is that this is the engineering video from the plane, just as CASSIOPE was, and that they simply mis-timed some camera motion, not some conspiracy to "hide" the end of the video. I mean...we've seen what the reception did to the video from CRS-3, and the ice on OrbComm. Even people who can bring a rocket down from orbit are occasionally limited by the systems they have set up to document it.
« Last Edit: 08/07/2014 11:35 AM by Chris Bergin »

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #284 on: 08/07/2014 03:43 PM »
Ed, they've released segments or stills from a video of this quality twice, both times stated to be from a plane in the area. My suspicion is that this is the engineering video from the plane, just as CASSIOPE was, and that they simply mis-timed some camera motion, not some conspiracy to "hide" the end of the video. I mean...we've seen what the reception did to the video from CRS-3, and the ice on OrbComm. Even people who can bring a rocket down from orbit are occasionally limited by the systems they have set up to document it.
The future path of this entire company depends on the results of this breakthrough testing - testing that costs a good bit of money.  Do you really believe that SpaceX is depending on only one hand-held camera to capture the results?

 - Ed Kyle

Online Mongo62

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #285 on: 08/07/2014 03:59 PM »
Ed, they've released segments or stills from a video of this quality twice, both times stated to be from a plane in the area. My suspicion is that this is the engineering video from the plane, just as CASSIOPE was, and that they simply mis-timed some camera motion, not some conspiracy to "hide" the end of the video. I mean...we've seen what the reception did to the video from CRS-3, and the ice on OrbComm. Even people who can bring a rocket down from orbit are occasionally limited by the systems they have set up to document it.
The future path of this entire company depends on the results of this breakthrough testing - testing that costs a good bit of money.  Do you really believe that SpaceX is depending on only one hand-held camera to capture the results?

 - Ed Kyle

I thought that these tests were essentially free -- the rocket stage is going into the drink anyways, so you might as well try what tests you can with any residual propellant after staging.

The only significant marginal costs that I know of would be for flying a chase plane to record video/telemetry, and the cost of the bolt-on landing legs (for those flights which allow the extra mass). Considering the return in test results, the costs are minimal.
« Last Edit: 08/07/2014 04:03 PM by Mongo62 »

Offline AncientU

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #286 on: 08/07/2014 04:03 PM »
And recall that NASA had its dedicated aircraft scheduled to record supersonic retro-propulsion burns and missed two consecutive opportunities, one for icing (didn't fly at all) and the second due to pointing or sun angle, I believe.  SpaceX got something on each flight, though not as much as we'd wish... and also retro-propulsion and landing data from onboard camera, though again not completely clean (or even marginally decipherable) footage.  I still think telemetry will tell what is needed engineering-wise, and the vids are more for public consumption.
« Last Edit: 08/07/2014 04:04 PM by AncientU »
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Offline Kabloona

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #287 on: 08/07/2014 04:40 PM »
Well, the good news is that we're likely to see a barge landing in less than 2 months. Imagine the video from an observation boat moored nearby, or even from land if the barge is just offshore. THAT will be impressive.

Offline Hauerg

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #288 on: 08/07/2014 04:52 PM »
Well, the good news is that we're likely to see a barge landing in less than 2 months. Imagine the video from an observation boat moored nearby, or even from land if the barge is just offshore. THAT will be impressive.

Imagine the video from the barge itself. looking upward into a live Merlin getting bigger and bigger and CUT.

Online meekGee

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #289 on: 08/07/2014 05:29 PM »
This is where the phrase "looking up and into the business end of the rocket" REALLY applies... :)
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Online abaddon

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #290 on: 08/07/2014 06:15 PM »
The future path of this entire company depends on the results of this breakthrough testing - testing that costs a good bit of money.  Do you really believe that SpaceX is depending on only one hand-held camera to capture the results?

No, they're relying on telemetry, the video is a bonus.

Offline ugordan

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #291 on: 08/07/2014 06:27 PM »
Do you really believe that SpaceX is depending on only one hand-held camera to capture the results?

As a matter of fact, yes, I *can* believe that. This video is very likely an afterthought, for documentation purposes. There is little a telephoto lens video from a distance will add to what they already know from telemetry. First you were suspicious of the stage moving out of frame, implying it was deliberate. Now you seem to accept the fact it might have been accidental and are now surprised they didn't have more than one camera onboard? You might as equally ask NASA why they didn't have more than one plane to try catching the reentry burns they're so interested in.

Have you ever tried tracking something with a long focal length from a small plane? I haven't. I can imagine it's not as trivial as it looks, though. People can have trouble tracking a rocket going *up*, while standing on firm ground and using a tripod. Is this supposed to be any easier?

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #292 on: 08/07/2014 07:12 PM »
Do you really believe that SpaceX is depending on only one hand-held camera to capture the results?
As a matter of fact, yes, I *can* believe that.
If so, you are willing to believe that this company is just a bunch of amateurs.  I am certain that it is not. 

Engineering video during launch vehicle R&D is standard stuff.  Engineers put recoverable film video cameras on board Redstone and Atlas and Thor and Titan and Saturn, etc., during the 1950s and 60s to capture key information, even with masses of telemetry available.  They used numerous long-range tracking cameras, including some on ships down range for some missions.

Maybe you want to believe that SpaceX has experienced nothing but perfection, that there is no detailed record of the "interesting" hiccups.  But successful launch vehicle R&D will inevitably have imperfect moments.  SpaceX has recorded those moments, including, I believe, the sudden dis-assembly of the Orbcomm first stage after its successful landing.  The company has not shown those moments in their finest detail to the public.  That is fine, but lets not pretend that the records do not exist or that the hiccups never happened.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 08/07/2014 07:15 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline ugordan

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #293 on: 08/07/2014 07:43 PM »
If so, you are willing to believe that this company is just a bunch of amateurs.  I am certain that it is not. 

I don't see how your conclusion follows from that. I am willing to believe they start simple and then work their way up. Their approach is not overkill right from the get-go. If they find out hand-held (or whatever method they're using from their "private" jet) doesn't cut it, and for some reason they *need* this video in the future, they improve and adapt. Their whole approach to recovery is just an example of that.

Engineering video during launch vehicle R&D is standard stuff.  Engineers put recoverable film video cameras on board Redstone and Atlas and Thor and Titan and Saturn, etc., during the 1950s and 60s to capture key information, even with masses of telemetry available. 

Why do you maintain this is engineering video? Besides, not nearly as much telemetry was available then as it is now.

In the 11 flights of F9, they haven't implemented a way to keep the onboard camera clean of ice and dirt. Why? Because in the end the footage is not that important.

Maybe you want to believe that SpaceX has experienced nothing but perfection, that there is no detailed record of the "interesting" hiccups. 

Please. You're not talking to a naive fanboy. Not everyone who sees that not everything is roses at SpaceX has to subscribe to conspiracy theories. How is my claim that remote video footage can be imperfect related in any way to other problems they might have? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Frankly, I'm suprised you didn't dissect the "convenient" video dropouts of the onboard CRS-3 video (even though you've most certainly complained about them not releasing the footage) or the "convenient" fogging up of the lens for Orbcomm onboard video, I'm sure SpaceX is hiding something there!

SpaceX has recorded those moments, including, I believe, the sudden dis-assembly of the Orbcomm first stage after its successful landing.  The company has not shown those moments in their finest detail to the public.  That is fine, but lets not pretend that the records do not exist or that the hiccups never happened.

By all means, share with us your source that says they *do* have perfect footage of the Orbcomm landing. Also, please tell us, once more, why *we* are entitled to see that footage, especially in light of an already public statement that the stage went kaboom. Who, exactly, is pretending here that no hiccup has occured?

Really, Ed, how far is your sense of entitlement willing to go? How come you're not nearly as displeased with NASA's inability to capture some lousy airborne footage at all, after two attempts in a row?

Online abaddon

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #294 on: 08/07/2014 07:59 PM »
We're getting firmly into tin-foil hat land here.  Next suggestion will be that the ice over the camera on the Orbcomm was digitally added to obscure critical details that SpaceX wants kept secret!  If you sincerely believe the other things that are being thrown around, that's certainly plausible.

We have a quote of Steve Jurvitson when presenting the video we have seen a recording of indicating that the view of the landing went out of frame due to a "glitch".  Unless someone can provide evidence -- any evidence -- that this is in fact not what happened, I would strongly urge you not to offer up unsubstantiated speculation to the contrary.  Frankly, I think it hurts the reputation of this site as basing discourse on substantiated sources, and that's really unfortunate.

Offline Chris Bergin

We're getting firmly into tin-foil hat land here. 

Agreed.

I want members here to not stray into conspiracy theories. I can tell you, from the people I know at SpaceX, such talk is nonsense and this nonsense ends right now.


Offline AncientU

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #296 on: 08/08/2014 05:04 PM »
Recall that the corrupted (now reconstructed) video feed on the first soft landing with legs was recorded aboard a personal jet with a handheld, pizza pan antenna held to the window -- if the EM reported method can be believed.  Cool, but not so much sophisticated. 

What matters is, it did soft land.  Telemetry had already told SpaceX that it soft landed and lost signal after eight seconds (when it tipped over).  The reconstructed video was frosting on the cake. 

Tinfoil need not apply.
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #297 on: 08/08/2014 05:24 PM »

Heh, is that a picture of your good self + cat?
We will be vic-toooooo-ri-ous!!!

Online meekGee

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #298 on: 08/08/2014 06:09 PM »

Heh, is that a picture of your good self + cat?

Or more interestingly, of your good self photobombed by a weird bearded guy?
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Offline llanitedave

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #299 on: 08/09/2014 01:28 AM »
If the cat doesn't meow with a British accent, then somebody's hiding something!
"I've just abducted an alien -- now what?"

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