Author Topic: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video  (Read 160707 times)

Offline laika_fr

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #80 on: 07/22/2014 10:39 PM »
Flight 14 must be OG2-M2, Orbcomm must be delighted.
a shrubbery on Mars

Online Paul_G

I find it absolutely hilarious that the recovered video that we fixed was in some ways better than this one!

So who wants to guess what "solid surface" means?

Are we back to talking about barges, tankers and oil platforms? I know this idea was repeatedly shot down as not allowing fast, low cost stage recycling, together with requiring good weather at the launch site sand landing zone, but if it is something Spacex are looking to do once, are they going to do all that work just to throw it away once they have recovered one stage?

Paul

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #82 on: 07/22/2014 10:47 PM »
Concrete floats, right?
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline AncientU

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #83 on: 07/22/2014 10:48 PM »
Concrete floats, right?
Concrete ships do
« Last Edit: 07/22/2014 10:48 PM by AncientU »
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Offline kch

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #84 on: 07/22/2014 10:49 PM »
The remaining questions are whether a landed stage can be easily secured and economically returned.  A RTLS does eliminate the time and trouble of a remote recovery.
It may be that even when RTLS is the preferred option, an alternative landing site may be ready if something makes the launch site unusable - though the weather at the launch site shouldn't change much in 10 minutes. 


Too bad the weather doesn't know that!  We've had some "squeakers" in both directions:

* the weather cleared just in time to launch (or closed in just after the launch)
* the weather cleared 10 minutes after the window expired (or clobbered-up just in time to stop the launch)



If they land down range then it's not just the return, they also have to handle the weather at that location, so they'd need to either abort a launch if there was bad weather at the down range landing site, or launch without recovery, or have 3 or 4 options so they can pick the one with good weather. Right?


Three or four options (a la STS TAL sites) would be good.   :)

Offline joshcryer

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #85 on: 07/22/2014 10:54 PM »
Incidentally, here is the Blue Origin patent with the sea going platform:
http://www.google.com/patents/US8678321

Granted March 25, 2014!

That's news.


This is such a silly patent (and I'm surprised someone hadn't patented it already years ago; maybe someone has and it's just lost in the archives). Is Blue Origin going to enforce it? Or is it just one of those safe patents to keep someone else from stopping you...

Regardless since SpaceX is in the R&D phase any efforts landing on a floating platform will be exempt.

Offline Lar

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #86 on: 07/22/2014 11:14 PM »
Now all we need to do is crowd-source a deconvolution of the icing effects on the lens.  No sweat, right? ::)
That would be interesting.

With a reasonably consistent alteration of the picture made by that ice, I wonder whether something 'simple' like using the first image from "the landing burn begins" to create a filter to apply to the rest would work. Of course you'd need to have a clean photo or some basic template of what it should have looked like without the ice.... not so easy.

In any case videographer or fx work rather than fixing the technical underpinnings as in the last video.

I'm impressed that they made so many transmission quality improvements... maybe they took some of the advice given in the repair and discussion threads?
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline Lobo

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #87 on: 07/22/2014 11:17 PM »
Lens iced over for the most part:



Cool.  Hopefully they'll be able to address that on the next attempt to prefent it getting iced over.  Be great to have a full clean video of it.  Be cool if they can get a video boat out in the area too to get a nice surface video.

Offline Mongo62

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #88 on: 07/22/2014 11:23 PM »
Cool.  Hopefully they'll be able to address that on the next attempt to prefent it getting iced over.  Be great to have a full clean video of it.  Be cool if they can get a video boat out in the area too to get a nice surface video.

According to their statement:

Quote
Going forward, we are taking steps to minimize the build up of ice and spots on the camera housing in order to gather improved video on future launches.

My own guess is that they will have a transparent cover over the camera housing that is ejected or flipped up before the landing burn.
« Last Edit: 07/22/2014 11:25 PM by Mongo62 »

Offline Lobo

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #89 on: 07/22/2014 11:30 PM »
From the update on the SpaceX site:

"We will attempt our next water landing on flight 13 of Falcon 9, but with a low probability of success. Flights 14 and 15 will attempt to land on a solid surface with an improved probability of success."

The real story here is flights 14 & 15 on LAND!!  That's before the end of this year.

Does this mean they have gotten precise in hitting a designated landing location?

I wonder if F9R-Dev 2 is going to be needed if they keep collecting data with these flights?

From the same update...

At this point, we are highly confident of being able to land successfully on a floating launch pad or back at the launch site and refly the rocket with no required refurbishment


Or possibly some sort of barge. :o

Maybe rent the Blue Marlin or Black Marlin for a few days.  Put some sort of surface on it to protect it, and have it partially submerge (but keep the deck above water) and it shoudl sit pretty stable in the water I'd think. 

There may be barges that are cheaper, especially if they were planning to have it land close to shore. 

Would a barge pitch too much?  Do they have ways of stabilizing them like these heavy lift ships have. 

Offline Lobo

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #90 on: 07/22/2014 11:35 PM »
There is the possibility that flight 14 will be to a floating "launch" pad and then flight 15 will touchdown on land. With respect to CRS-4 having a low probability of success, is it possible that it could be a repeat of Cassiope, where the rocket spins out of control due to lack of legs?


Bonus: Here is the article saved for posterity: https://web.archive.org/web/20140722210143/http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/07/22/spacex-soft-lands-falcon-9-rocket-first-stage

I find it odd they used the words "floating launch pad", when as far as we know, there's not intent to launch an Falcon from a floating platform, is there?
I would think they'd refer to it as a "floating landing pad".


Offline CharlieWildman

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #91 on: 07/22/2014 11:40 PM »
Lens iced over for the most part:



Cool.  Hopefully they'll be able to address that on the next attempt to prefent it getting iced over.  Be great to have a full clean video of it.  Be cool if they can get a video boat out in the area too to get a nice surface video.
Probably the best system would be what is used for on board racing cameras.  A clear film is stored on rollers and passed in front of the lens carrying all the offending gunk with it.  SpaceX could probably buy the system(s) off the shelf.

A small amount of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Offline sdub

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #92 on: 07/22/2014 11:43 PM »
The implications of a "floating launch pad" are fairly profound.  Forgive me if this has been discussed, but everything I had read indicated this was not the direction they were following.  With a floating launch pad, they could refuel the second stage at sea and then use a suborbital launch to send the first stage back to land.  There it would be integrated for a future flight.

This would seem to provide more payload options if they no longer have to boost back to land.  They should be able to squeeze a little extra delta v if they don't have to boost back.

What about multiple floating launch pads at different points downrange?  They could put two fairly close to land for the outer F9H cores.  Then another pad would be further downrange for the center core running in a crossfeed scenario.  Then the center core could take a suborbital hop either to the midrange launch pads, or directly to land itself depending on the math....

This would remove the requirement to have a barge to transport the rocket.  However, it does require shipping fuel over seas out to the launch pad.
« Last Edit: 07/22/2014 11:49 PM by sdub »

Offline Jim_LAX

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #93 on: 07/22/2014 11:46 PM »
Could be both a barge and a carrier. Where's the Ranger now days?
Alas, The Ranger is no more!
http://www.uss-ranger.org/
At 35+ knots the Ranger could beat the pants of any other type of "floating landing pad" in returning Falcon cores back to port.  I served aboard Ranger from '65 to '67.
"I don't go along with going to the Moon first in order to build a launch pad to go to Mars.  We should go to Mars from Earth orbit."

Offline Lobo

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #94 on: 07/22/2014 11:49 PM »
The Aircraft Carrier might not be far off.


USS Saratoga sold for scrap to Esco Marine in Brownsville Texas.
Link
http://www.recyclingtoday.com/navy-esco-marine-scraps-carrier.aspx

I don't think so.

First, it wouldn't be on a USN carrier currently in service.  I don't think they'd make one available for a civilian test, and even if they did, it could cost SpaceX a HUGE amount of money if something went really wrong and severaly damaged it.

I don't think they would do an old scrapped carrier like the Saratoga.  It's too expensive for what would essentually be a 1 time test (if it goes well). 

I think they'll do something as cheap as possible.  Rent a barge and fit it with thrust protection, or do some other ship with a large open area like one of those heavy lift ships, and fit it with temporary thrust protection.

Remember, this will just be a one time event if it goes well.  Maybe 2-3 times if they have trouble with the first. for some reason.    Not enough to use a current or old Carrier.

Look at that heavier carrier ship.  It can steam out to the LZ, partially submerge to get nice and stable, recieve the Falcon, with a mobile crane it's carrying, lower the booster into a cradle and secure for the run back to port.  They'd probably arange permission with NASA to have it come back into the turn basin to offload, if it would fit in there.
In fact, that's probably going to be your bottle neck.  Whatever they use will probably have to be able to fit into the turn basin.  It might be hard to get a core onto a dock area somewhere like Port Canaveral and truck it back to LC-40, given it's size.

Offline Quialiss

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #95 on: 07/23/2014 12:13 AM »
Background subtraction does not improve the video much, for most of the landing burn the ice is melting/shifting which means any subtraction will show those patterns as well as the interesting ones with no easy way to sort them out as they're happening on the same timescale.  Melting ice has never looked so psychedelic, though!

Comparing a couple points in the video that are easy to visually identify, the timing of the leg deploy relative to landing looks nearly identical.

OG2                                         (timestamps +- 0.1 seconds)
Frame      event                        timestamp
1521        leg deploy starts      15:25:57.0
1786        exhaust hits ocean  15:26:03.5   +6.5 seconds
1858        engine fully out        15:26:05.8   +8.8 seconds


CRS-3
Frame      event                       timestamp
90            leg deploy starts     68.846444
181          exhaust hits ocean  74.919178   +6.1 seconds
224          engine fully out        77.788711   +8.8 seconds

Offline ey

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #96 on: 07/23/2014 12:17 AM »
I figure the cheapest, safest option would be an unpowered/towed barge. Just a big hunk of floating metal. A ship would tow the barge out, and then leave the vicinity of the landing area for the safety of the crew.

Due to the height, I'm not sure how practical it would be to move it or lift it using a crane from another ship once it lands, but it would at least prove that the Falcon 9 could land intact at a small target location.

There would also need to be some way to prevent the barge from moving too much (or have the first stage be able to compensate for the barge drifting) and stabilize it enough so it doesn't tip over.

Offline inventodoc

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #97 on: 07/23/2014 12:29 AM »
Looking at the video, I was surprised at how late the landing legs deployed.  Kind of thought those would have been used to slow spin but they deployed very late.  Looks like those thrusters were able to null everything out.   As far as the irregular flames, not so sure but wonder if there is some thruster firing there too.

All in all, very anticipated and enjoyable to watch.

Offline Lee Jay

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #98 on: 07/23/2014 12:32 AM »
If they don't mind it tipping over on landing, they could use a barge.  If they want it to stay vertical, and if the LZ is shallow, they could use a jack up barge.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #99 on: 07/23/2014 12:45 AM »
Looking at the video, I was surprised at how late the landing legs deployed.  Kind of thought those would have been used to slow spin but they deployed very late.  Looks like those thrusters were able to null everything out.   As far as the irregular flames, not so sure but wonder if there is some thruster firing there too.

As others have pointed out, the legs - even in their undeployed state - acts as fins. Thus they can reduce roll without deploying.

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