Author Topic: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video  (Read 130587 times)

Offline Mike_1179

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #40 on: 07/22/2014 08:27 PM »
There was some talk about the center core of a FH not being able to return the launch site because it will be too far downrange at staging.  Makes me think they’re building a floating platform for landing the center core of the (then safing it and lowering it to horizontal and shipping it back) and they’ll use that for floating recovery of the F9 stage.

Offline cscott

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #41 on: 07/22/2014 08:28 PM »
How much of a trip will it be seeing 3 cores land within seconds of each other!!

Only two cores landing within seconds of each other.  The center core has more flying to do (and getting it back to the launch site would be a challenge, it might land downrange some).

Offline Barrie

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #42 on: 07/22/2014 08:30 PM »
Striking that they talk about landing on a floating launch pad.

And if they give the next water landing a low probability of success, does that mean they are planning to trim some margins and see if they get away with it?

Offline Joey S-IVB

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #43 on: 07/22/2014 08:35 PM »
I read it as saying the next water landing has a low probability of successfully recovering the first stage intact.

Offline Scylla

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #44 on: 07/22/2014 08:37 PM »
Striking that they talk about landing on a floating launch pad.

And if they give the next water landing a low probability of success, does that mean they are planning to trim some margins and see if they get away with it?

I think it's more likely they are talking about success of recovery as opposed to "KABOOM".
I reject your reality and substitute my own--Doctor Who

Offline mr. mark

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #45 on: 07/22/2014 08:39 PM »
I guess it's up to me to ask the stupid question of the day :( How does Blue Origins patent pending effect a SpaceX barge recovery at least in the future. Seems as though their patent claim was never resolved let alone had legs to stand on. Any legal experts out there?

Offline GusTurbo

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #46 on: 07/22/2014 08:42 PM »
A pending patent doesn't have any legal force, it simply puts others on notice that a patent has been applied for. It may be accepted or rejected.

Offline Scylla

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #47 on: 07/22/2014 08:44 PM »
And what they are claiming for patent appears..dubious..at best.
I reject your reality and substitute my own--Doctor Who

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #48 on: 07/22/2014 08:45 PM »
If they now have pinpoint accuracy, I wonder if we could maybe see quadcopter footage of a landing in the future.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline AncientU

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #49 on: 07/22/2014 08:49 PM »
The floating platform option allows full boost-back demonstration (less nominal distance offshore of 5-10 miles?).  This is a missing piece of the soft splashdowns to date, and might be an FAA last demo requirement.

Note: the floating platform will have quadcopters, of course!
« Last Edit: 07/22/2014 08:52 PM by AncientU »
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Offline yg1968

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #50 on: 07/22/2014 08:52 PM »
One implication of the news that they only plan one more ocean 'landing' before trying to land on land, is that the next ocean landing attempt (flight #13 - presumably next CRS mission) will have to demonstrate a pinpoint landing. So presumably that will be the first flight with the grid fins installed.

Maybe. Maybe not. If they are using a floating launch pad, pin point acuracy may not need to be demonstrated prior to attempting landing on it. But I agree that it would make more sense to do it the way that you are suggesting.
« Last Edit: 07/22/2014 08:52 PM by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #51 on: 07/22/2014 08:56 PM »
A pending patent doesn't have any legal force, it simply puts others on notice that a patent has been applied for. It may be accepted or rejected.

This isn't my area of expertise but I believe that a patent can be accepted by the patent office but still not be valid in court. 
« Last Edit: 07/22/2014 09:02 PM by yg1968 »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #52 on: 07/22/2014 08:59 PM »
A pending patent doesn't have any legal force, it simply puts others on notice that a patent has been applied for. It may be accepted or rejected.

This isn't my area of expertise but I believe that a patent can be accepted by the patent offfice but still not be valid in court. 

Validity of a patent and a legal determination of patent infringement are two different issues.  A judge will never rule whether a patent is valid or not, that is the function of the patent office, but a judge will rule whether a patent is applicable to a specific case.

I don't want to get into the gory details here, but a patent is basically just a document that gives you standing to sue.

Another issue is the priority date of any patent. It is possible that Blue Origin may indeed secure a patent for barge recovery, but their date of coverage may be in the future. I can't tell without looking at their application.  However, the priority date of a patent may actually pre-date the patent, if a provision application is filed.

Hey, I found the link to the patent application:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?
Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&
r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220110017872%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20110017872&RS=DN/20110017872

It looks like the priority date is June 14, 2010, assuming their application was accepted by the USPTO.

And then I found the patent itself:

http://www.google.com/patents/US20110017872

Jun 15, 2009 is the actual priority date, based on something or other.

wow, this was not only filed in the USA, but also in Canada, Russia, Japan, Europe, and with some World IP Association.

« Last Edit: 07/22/2014 09:39 PM by Chris Bergin »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #53 on: 07/22/2014 09:00 PM »
If they now have pinpoint accuracy, I wonder if we could maybe see quadcopter footage of a landing in the future.

What makes you think that they have achieved pinpoint accuracy? Isn't that what the grid fins are about?

Offline GusTurbo

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #54 on: 07/22/2014 09:00 PM »
A pending patent doesn't have any legal force, it simply puts others on notice that a patent has been applied for. It may be accepted or rejected.

This isn't my area of expertise but I believe that a patent can be accepted by the patent offfice but still not be valid in court.

Admittedly not my area of expertise either. Also, I shouldn't be wasting my time here since I have the bar exam coming up next Tuesday.  :)

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #55 on: 07/22/2014 09:05 PM »
If they now have pinpoint accuracy, I wonder if we could maybe see quadcopter footage of a landing in the future.

What makes you think that they have achieved pinpoint accuracy? Isn't that what the grid fins are about?

What makes you think I said they had?
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline cscott

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #56 on: 07/22/2014 09:06 PM »
I agree that the primary purpose of the floating platform is probably to demonstrate "pin point accuracy" -- so it may be useful even if not practical for "real" use and/or not stable enough to prevent kaboom.  Does anyone know off-hand what sort of vessel/barge positioning accuracy you can get "without too much trouble" in the middle of the ocean?  This sort of position holding is routine for geotechnical exploration, oil rigs, etc, but it would be nice to try to quantify it.  I suspect the lat/long positioning would be much more precise than the altitude positioning -- you need quite a large vessel to even out wave action -- but having a defined non-specular surface would undoubtedly be good for the radar altimeter.

My wild guess is that that outstanding patent is one of the reasons they are hedging about the floating platform.  If there's any chance they won't end up landing on a barge, it's best to avoid making a public announcement of intent to infringe.  Perhaps there's also some quiet simultaneous legal negotiation taking place for a low-cost patent license, since I'm sure the patent holder doesn't want to have to risk having it publicly infringed and then challenged in court.
« Last Edit: 07/22/2014 09:07 PM by cscott »

Offline mr. mark

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #57 on: 07/22/2014 09:08 PM »
We keep talking about platforms but, what about a deserted island perhaps. Anything out in the Atlantic and within the flight profile that would meet the criteria? Another wild idea. Could you land it on the deck of an aircraft carrier? Yeah, I know the risks but planes have crashed on decks before.
« Last Edit: 07/22/2014 09:15 PM by mr. mark »

Offline laika_fr

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #58 on: 07/22/2014 09:12 PM »
several news here

- CRS-5 used to be the last to date "end of the year" target for landing.

- CRS-4 is the new target so SpaceX has made progress (again) and secured this type of approach - NASA agrees.

- The body slam comes from a regular splashdown, a rocket is a rocket and it does not like lateral shocks, trying to fix this may change his purpose from a LV to a expensive alarm clock for cows.

- SpaceX is ready and has everything in hands to revolutionize space access.
« Last Edit: 07/22/2014 09:34 PM by laika_fr »
a shrubbery on Mars

Offline Garrett

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Re: Falcon 9 v1.1 ORBCOMM - First Stage Ocean Landing Video
« Reply #59 on: 07/22/2014 09:14 PM »
If they now have pinpoint accuracy, I wonder if we could maybe see quadcopter footage of a landing in the future.
Give a man an inch ...  :P

Seriously though, this is already going at a nice pace. We'll probably be watching a live stream of a returning stage by summer 2015 and all this suspense we're currently being subjected to will be in the past. Where's the fun in that ;)
- "Nothing shocks me. I'm a scientist." - Indiana Jones

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