Britain plans to build commercial spaceport

[Star One]

Just reporting now.

Britain is to build a commercial spaceport that will be used to launch manned missions and commercial satellites. A list of eight locations for the spaceport – which could be used by Virgin Galactic and the US company XCOR to launch space tourism flights – has been drawn up by the government and will be announced on Tuesday at the Farnborough air show.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jul/13/britain-plans-commercial-spaceport-farnborough-air-show

[Kryten]

 The BBC is already reporting the shortlist, possibly accidentally.

[simonbp]

Considering the ridiculous number of small-airports-with-large-runways in the US that have started calling themselves "spaceports", I'm pretty dubious this is going to work. What advantage does a runway in Middle-of-Nowhere, Scotland have over a real launch site like CCAFS or MARS or CSG?

And you think weather delays are bad in Florida? 

[Avron]

I would go with Newquary .. get as far south as you can .. now flying over europe and the rest of Britain, may be a small problem the EU may be a tad unhappy about

[A_M_Swallow]

Britain is convenient for trips to the ISS, beyond that it is launches to polar orbits.

From London it is easier to fly to Texas than the north of Scotland.

[Star One]

Considering the ridiculous number of small-airports-with-large-runways in the US that have started calling themselves "spaceports", I'm pretty dubious this is going to work. What advantage does a runway in Middle-of-Nowhere, Scotland have over a real launch site like CCAFS or MARS or CSG?

And you think weather delays are bad in Florida? 

I am not sure the Scots would take very kindly to you referring to Scotland as being in the middle of nowhere.

[mikes]

My local press is (rather optimistically) hoping this will revive the 1960s plan for a launch site in north Norfolk

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/could_norfolk_be_about_to_get_a_spaceport_almost_50_years_after_plans_for_one_at_brancaster_were_ditched_1_3682227

Norfolk's perfectly happy to be described as "middle of nowhere" despite being 100 miles from London!

[john smith 19]

The BBC is already reporting the shortlist, possibly accidentally.

I'm not sure that map is accurate. I read the new report (from BBC Scotland) and I think it represents their best guess which airports are being considered.

Someone said an exercise like this was done in the early 80's and they came down on the Dounreay area, which is much further North, but still on the mainland and has airport access (in fact the nuclear reactor site at Dounreay was an airbase and one of it's runways was still in use until the mid 90's.

Back then most of the question would be probably have been for TSTO ELV's although I suspect HOTOL may have been part of the brief.

The question for using Dounreay would of course be what's the runway like now. Otherwise the nearest runway is at Wick (John O'Groats) which is no more than 1800m long. 

[john smith 19]

Considering the ridiculous number of small-airports-with-large-runways in the US that have started calling themselves "spaceports", I'm pretty dubious this is going to work. What advantage does a runway in Middle-of-Nowhere, Scotland have over a real launch site like CCAFS or MARS or CSG?

And you think weather delays are bad in Florida? 

For NASA nothing of course.

But then this is not being done for NASA is it?

A mainland test and launch site (for VTOL ELV's, sounding rockets, HTOL RLV's?) puts a test facility in relatively easy reach of UK universities (otherwise you have to take a flight to Sweden) and shortens your development cycle if you were planning a largish space development project in the UK, especially an expendable one.

The joker in the pack is the issue of the devolution referendum as that would complicate funding considerable

I quite like "Referendum result: Salmon and Sturgeon poached!" as a headline.

But I expect the results will be more restrained. 

[Celebrimbor]

The latest buzz around this could well be politically timed in relation to the Scottish vote etc. which is of course important in its own way.

But its worth knowing that this is not being thrown together for short term political gain.  A press release was published 30th April 2014:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/shaping-the-future-of-the-uk-space-sector

Action 2.6 of the UKSA Space Growth Action Plan is to:
"UK Space Agency to champion policy and investment to establish a Space Port in the UK by 2018 and identify further reforms to regulation needed to allow space flight in the UK."

More here, which I haven't read yet: http://www.slideshare.net/Stellvia/uksa-national-space-technology-strategy

[simonbp]

Considering the ridiculous number of small-airports-with-large-runways in the US that have started calling themselves "spaceports", I'm pretty dubious this is going to work. What advantage does a runway in Middle-of-Nowhere, Scotland have over a real launch site like CCAFS or MARS or CSG?

And you think weather delays are bad in Florida? 

For NASA nothing of course.

But then this is not being done for NASA is it?

A mainland test and launch site (for VTOL ELV's, sounding rockets, HTOL RLV's?) puts a test facility in relatively easy reach of UK universities (otherwise you have to take a flight to Sweden) and shortens your development cycle if you were planning a largish space development project in the UK, especially an expendable one.

Like who?

Launching an ELV from Europe would be nuts both because of the bureaucracy and because of the very limited inclination range (and the uncooperative weather). No one has ever made money off of sounding rockets. No horizontal takeoff RLV exists, outside Branson's Folly.

The only possible orbital contender is Reaction Engines, but they have publicly stated that they would only operate Skylons for test flights. Commercial flights would be by commercial operators, who would choose a launch site based on commercial considerations, not parochial nationalism. The same would be true for any other British RLV company. Commercial companies are in it to make money, not "promote Britishness".

I think there is a future for British RLVs, but you'd be hard pressed to come up with a worse place in the world to build a spaceport than Great Britain. If the UK government really wanted to promote British RLVs, they would be funding something like a British version of the X-Prize or the Lunar Landing Challenge. Instead, they are building a spaceport that probably no one will use.

[Star One]

Considering the ridiculous number of small-airports-with-large-runways in the US that have started calling themselves "spaceports", I'm pretty dubious this is going to work. What advantage does a runway in Middle-of-Nowhere, Scotland have over a real launch site like CCAFS or MARS or CSG?

And you think weather delays are bad in Florida? 

For NASA nothing of course.

But then this is not being done for NASA is it?

A mainland test and launch site (for VTOL ELV's, sounding rockets, HTOL RLV's?) puts a test facility in relatively easy reach of UK universities (otherwise you have to take a flight to Sweden) and shortens your development cycle if you were planning a largish space development project in the UK, especially an expendable one.

Like who?

Launching an ELV from Europe would be nuts both because of the bureaucracy and because of the very limited inclination range (and the uncooperative weather). No one has ever made money off of sounding rockets. No horizontal takeoff RLV exists, outside Branson's Folly.

The only possible orbital contender is Reaction Engines, but they have publicly stated that they would only operate Skylons for test flights. Commercial flights would be by commercial operators, who would choose a launch site based on commercial considerations, not parochial nationalism. The same would be true for any other British RLV company. Commercial companies are in it to make money, not "promote Britishness".

I think there is a future for British RLVs, but you'd be hard pressed to come up with a worse place in the world to build a spaceport than Great Britain. If the UK government really wanted to promote British RLVs, they would be funding something like a British version of the X-Prize or the Lunar Landing Challenge. Instead, they are building a spaceport that probably no one will use.

You keep on about the weather as if was that awful in this country, actually contrary to your rather large assumption it really isn't most of the time.

As for your bureaucracy argument again this just seems to be a massive assumption on your part without any actual basis in fact.

[saturnapollo]

The Florida weather is actually more volatile than Scottish weather!  Anyway the Russians can launch in virtually any weather. Comes down to how susceptible your launch vehicle is to bad weather and the shuttle for instance was extremely vulnerable to adverse weather conditions. Skylon or whatever is envisioned probably wouldn't be.

Having said all that can't see the logic of setting up a spaceport until there is something actually able to use it. With all due respects to Alan Bond it might turn out to be another HOTOL.

Keith

[bad_astra]

wouldn't Ascension make a better launch site? It's close to the equator, anyway.

[Star One]

wouldn't Ascension make a better launch site? It's close to the equator, anyway.

Not really applicable here because it's clear that probably as much for political reasons as anything else that they want to build this on the UK mainland as investment in infrastructure.

[john smith 19]

The BSA's job is to deal with all space related things in the UK. Part of that is to stimulate space work in the UK economy by doing the things that private business cannot do.

The UK has no civilian site from which to launch orbital or sub orbital payloads. AFAIK they are all military (actually I think they are now owned by Quintiq, who got them when DERA had effectively an MBO).

A civilian site would also mean all the regulatory issues could be solved in 1 location in one go for (potentially) orbital, sub orbital, expendable an reusable. BTW London to Guiana space centre by plane is roughly 8 hours. However if you're testing in Guiana and developing in the UK how long will it take to ship updated hardware out to the test site? 

The BSA has to see the "big picture" so it needs to find a site that's as versatile as possible, ideally with good rail (if you're bringing in stages, possibly solid fueled for sounding rockets), road and air travel links.

That suggests a site as far out into the North Atlantic (while remaining on the mainland) as possible.

So this is an infrastructure investment that will be in place for a long time to come with the goal of benefiting the whole country.

Obviously the referendum vote will complicate things as English funding would likely have to be reconsidered. IIRC the current polls are showing 58% to 47% against leaving the UK. (Although Sean Connery and Alan Cummins are still all for coming out.  ).

What I think could be the long term winner in this plan is the development of sounding rocket payloads. AFAIK the UK doesn't do them (it does do some balloon borne stuff). Obviously SSTL grew out of Surey Universities engineering school but sounding rockets (in principle) offer many more opportunities to fly per year (and more universities can offer such courses). SR's can also be pretty substantial. IIRC the German top of the range ones run 800Kg to a 1200Km ascent and will give something like 15-20 mins of microgravity.

At present the only European range is in Northern Sweden. Would any of the UK neighbors  want to come to the UK instead of there?  Debatable, but possible. 

One item that has not been discussed is that if the port included a full Skylon rated runway that would allow direct launch from the UK to orbit for high latitude satellites, which would be handy for "on demand" deployment of Earth observation satellites for various applications. Even a full length runway would allow allow loading of payloads on British soil in a closed container for transfer to (say) Kourou, loading of LO2, top off of LH2 and delivery to equatorial orbit. 

[john smith 19]

Just a thought. I think there's a cabinet reshuffle coming up

Anyone know if the Minister Willets is safe? REL seem to have gotten on well with him.

[Borklund]

At present the only European range is in Northern Sweden. Would any of the UK neighbors  want to come to the UK instead of there?  Debatable, but possible.

Esrange (the name of the range in Northern Sweden) is only a small site for launching sounding rockets and high altitude balloons. Presumably this proposed UK spaceport would cater to different customers.

[baldusi]

At present the only European range is in Northern Sweden. Would any of the UK neighbors  want to come to the UK instead of there?  Debatable, but possible.

Esrange (the name of the range in Northern Sweden) is only a small site for launching sounding rockets and high altitude balloons. Presumably this proposed UK spaceport would cater to different customers.

But an orbital range requires deploying assets very far away. I don't know if it could be done as a single country.

[Star One]

Just a thought. I think there's a cabinet reshuffle coming up

Anyone know if the Minister Willets is safe? REL seem to have gotten on well with him.

He's gone.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/havant-mp-to-stand-down-at-next-general-election-after-more-than-two-decades-1-6177913