"The overall ISS design is optimized to fly in the XVV attitude for the following reasons:*It provides the best microgravity conditions*It supports attitude re-boosts*It supports service vehicle docking*It minimizes aerodynamic drag
I'm going to present it in a bit of a stream of consciousness manner, a prompting question per section and a paragraph per answer, to show my thinking in as much detail as possible and perhaps deflect both Jim's nitpicking and questions that have already been answered:
"This swamps the drag force (or the steady-state thrust required to fight it) by a factor of 100, and completely invalidates criticism on the basis of microgravity disturbance, even if you consider the other points invalid."wrong, because the lab module (experiments) are not at the ends of the station. The lab is near the CG of the station for that specific purpose.
Quote"So - we need a gimbal anyway, why not mount a thruster like this at the end of a robotic arm? Anything designed to re-position ten-ton payloads in reasonable time-frames is going to require enough strength and torque to deal with a constant 250mN force at its end effector. At the end of a robotic arm, a thruster can move around the spacecraft to wherever it has a free FOV, in the intersection of the plane of orbit (it has to point retrograde, but we get to control rotation of the station, adding one DoF)"not feasible.The arm brakes are not designed for constant force.The arms don't have the positional accuracyDon't want to spray the ISS with SEP exhaustArms don't have the reliability for this The thrust is not enough to destaturate the gyros.There is no control capability for the ERA on the USOS.there is no wiring for the ERA on the trussthe ERA is not the SSRMS, it does not move modules.
"So - we need a gimbal anyway, why not mount a thruster like this at the end of a robotic arm? Anything designed to re-position ten-ton payloads in reasonable time-frames is going to require enough strength and torque to deal with a constant 250mN force at its end effector. At the end of a robotic arm, a thruster can move around the spacecraft to wherever it has a free FOV, in the intersection of the plane of orbit (it has to point retrograde, but we get to control rotation of the station, adding one DoF)"
Quote"I believe the ISS has 7kW to spare, frankly. 2-3kW may be all they can spare for the VASIMR experiment if it will produce no useful propulsion, but this would be the *primary propulsion mode* of the whole station, and could be easily prioritized."I believe" doesn't cut it. Nor does taking power away from the rest of the station viable
"I believe the ISS has 7kW to spare, frankly. 2-3kW may be all they can spare for the VASIMR experiment if it will produce no useful propulsion, but this would be the *primary propulsion mode* of the whole station, and could be easily prioritized.
Zarya can not be used for any propulsive requirements. Those systems were deactivated. Also, the main thrusters are in the wrong directionSince DAM's are required and need higher thrust than and SEP can provide, it is just easier to maintain chemical rockets and their associate logistics.
Your estimates for one module per Dragon flight are unrealistic. There is no accounting for packaging and attached hardware in the Dragon.
1. The ERA was selected as an arbitrary example of a robotic arm, however, with a team actively working on it which could likely increase production to 3 units without much problem. 2. It's not necessary to use this particular model if it's inadequate, this is effectively a free variable. Pick any of the other robotic arms on the station and duplicate them if you like, design your own, or design a strong gimbal on a long rigid extending mast - the point is the problem is entirely tractable. Something to bring the needed thrust vector out of the path of the rest of the station without unduly affecting operations is a solveable problem, particularly if the thrust is split between two units.3. Any module we can mount on the station is going to require new wiring for control & capability. Tractable problem.4. Why is 250mN-500mN thrust not capable of desaturating the CMGs, if pointed in the proper direction? How do you imagine desaturating the gyros works?5. See redundant points if you're skeptical on this one.6. "Were deactivated". Not "Were deorbited". The main thrusters can be pointed in the right direction by rotating around the Y axis temporarily into a configuration that is offset from but fixed in relation to XVV, a maneuver which does not appear to be uncommon - it's necessary to rotate by 180 degrees anytime the station wants to switch between XVV- and XVV+ to support burns or docking. Rotating to, say, XVV plus 90 degrees, for a brief burn, is something that's feasible for a DAM.7. See also redundant points - adding new thrusters to connect to Zarya's tanks requires some novel plumbing, but is quite low-mass-requirement... ISS separation is not that likely to happen, allowing Zvezda and Progress emergency reboosts... etc, etc, etc.
Quote from: Burninate on 07/06/2014 07:06 pm1. The ERA was selected as an arbitrary example of a robotic arm, however, with a team actively working on it which could likely increase production to 3 units without much problem. 2. It's not necessary to use this particular model if it's inadequate, this is effectively a free variable. Pick any of the other robotic arms on the station and duplicate them if you like, design your own, or design a strong gimbal on a long rigid extending mast - the point is the problem is entirely tractable. Something to bring the needed thrust vector out of the path of the rest of the station without unduly affecting operations is a solveable problem, particularly if the thrust is split between two units.3. Any module we can mount on the station is going to require new wiring for control & capability. Tractable problem.4. Why is 250mN-500mN thrust not capable of desaturating the CMGs, if pointed in the proper direction? How do you imagine desaturating the gyros works?5. See redundant points if you're skeptical on this one.6. "Were deactivated". Not "Were deorbited". The main thrusters can be pointed in the right direction by rotating around the Y axis temporarily into a configuration that is offset from but fixed in relation to XVV, a maneuver which does not appear to be uncommon - it's necessary to rotate by 180 degrees anytime the station wants to switch between XVV- and XVV+ to support burns or docking. Rotating to, say, XVV plus 90 degrees, for a brief burn, is something that's feasible for a DAM.7. See also redundant points - adding new thrusters to connect to Zarya's tanks requires some novel plumbing, but is quite low-mass-requirement... ISS separation is not that likely to happen, allowing Zvezda and Progress emergency reboosts... etc, etc, etc.1. Wrong. ERA production was finished long ago. The manufacturing team is gone. So, it is a problem
2. All arms on the station are springboards and are ill-suited for such a task. They are not rigid and not meant to hold a constant force. There will be flexing and having two of them makes it worse, there will be control issues. The problem is not "tractable", it cause more problems and solves none.
3.What new modules? Anyway, modules are connected from the inside. More overuse of the word tractable and actually is handwaving away problems. It is quite the opposite. ISS was scarred for the existing arms. If you are going to used the word, have some knowledge to back it up.
4. Too low of thrust. Need higher thrust and shorter time periods.
5. What points? You haven't shown that the ISS has excess power nor is willing to give up power. Giving up power is counter productive, it reduces the reason for the ISS existing.
6. "Were deactivated" as in never can be used again, not just turned off. The FGB was never intended for reboost. And it is idiotic to think that "wrong direction" in the context of this discussion means the thrust vector as it relates to direction of flight. The FGB thrusters are in the "wrong direction" because they are pointed at the ISS structure and would impinge on it.
7. If Zvezda and Progress are still in use, then SEP for reboost is a waste of resources.
Quote from: Burninate on 07/06/2014 07:06 pm4. Why is 250mN-500mN thrust not capable of desaturating the CMGs, if pointed in the proper direction? How do you imagine desaturating the gyros works?4. Too low of thrust. Need higher thrust and shorter time periods.
4. Why is 250mN-500mN thrust not capable of desaturating the CMGs, if pointed in the proper direction? How do you imagine desaturating the gyros works?
The strategy for desaturation is different. With few large thrusters you want short bursts. So you can keep the nutation effects to a minimum. But actually for longer lived CMG's, more frequent smaller pulses result in less wear.You can actually do an entire ACS with many thrusters and no CMGs. You use the spacecraft thrust structure as a spring, and use chaotic coupling knowing the deformation of the structure, Can be done even with relatively fast slewing for imaging too, maintaining a rock solid positioning in an inertial frame.Requires considerable FEM examination of the problem before understanding if the problem is tractable. It's been proven on small spacecraft, and in simulation on large space telescopes.Saying it can't work on a space station isn't right. It wouldn't surprise me if it could. And provide a lower cost, better microgravity environment.Might be an interesting project for IR&D funding, if not being done already. Not ready for operation.
Love to get into it. But please do us all a favor and read the link provided.It gives the essence of ACS operations, including the issues and requirements for desaturating CMG's.
Suggest you put the torques and moment arms into consideration given the equations near the end of the paper. Its not that hard.Think of the desaturation impulse as like fixing/grabbing the spacecraft while the gyro reacts to it. Simple fix.Now imagine many carefully calculated "fixations" from thousands of different, damped load paths that add up to do the same.You get them from many precisely timed precalculated thrusts, across the station. Phased carefully.
Quote from: Space Ghost 1962 on 07/07/2014 01:55 amLove to get into it. But please do us all a favor and read the link provided.It gives the essence of ACS operations, including the issues and requirements for desaturating CMG's.Alright, done - I appreciate the reference. I still don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.
An ion thruster does in fact act as a 'mass expulsion system'. I have described how assymetrical or off-axis thrust constitutes 'body-fixed offset roll/yaw thrusters'.
"The duration of the desaturation impulse is a function of the amount of momentum to be dumped. This is typically about one percent of nominal wheel momentum.ll For a 500-kg satellite in geosynchronous orbit. the required torque for desaturation is about 0.01 N· m-s. The number of thruster cycles expected over the lifetime of the satellite is a potentially limiting item. "Thruster cycle life is not an issue for ion thrusters, particularly ion thruster controlled for yaw using CoM offset & orientation. There's nothing here that suggests some minimum torque figure (and also, unit Newton Meter Second in this context is torque * time, not torque alone), only that the strategies that a 500kg spacecraft can use to employ conventional hypergolic RCS thrust blocks (tiny, high thrust, low cycle life, I guess non-gimballing / non-throttling devices) involve precision pulsing, and that the minimum duration for this pulse is set by thruster cycle life. I don't see why that has to carry to this solution, which would employ fractional newtons at a very large number of seconds per day (all of them), and an adjustable number of meters moment arm, with no constraint on cycle life known.
QuoteSuggest you put the torques and moment arms into consideration given the equations near the end of the paper. Its not that hard.Think of the desaturation impulse as like fixing/grabbing the spacecraft while the gyro reacts to it. Simple fix.Now imagine many carefully calculated "fixations" from thousands of different, damped load paths that add up to do the same.You get them from many precisely timed precalculated thrusts, across the station. Phased carefully.Yes, I understand how desaturation impulses work, we're on the same page there, but that doesn't lead to this conclusion.
Differential throttle authority, gimballed attitude of the thruster and translation across the range of movement should provide abundant torque, and control over that torque, to desaturate the CMGs as the spacecraft flies. It does not require precision pulses, only the precision to control the amount of torque, and sufficient mechanism to generate that torque using a moment arm in all three dimensions. I thought I'd shown that.