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#280 by tolis on 15 May, 2021 10:13
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Now waiting for the pictures..
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#281 by limen4 on 15 May, 2021 10:16
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FRom one of my Chinese friends I got the following information:
On May 17, Zhurong Mars Rover will communicate with Tianwen-1 by ESA MarsExpress. -
#282 by centaurinasa on 15 May, 2021 14:55
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#283 by the_other_Doug on 15 May, 2021 18:04
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With apologies to Rocket Lab...
Pics or it didn't happen!
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#284 by mlindner on 15 May, 2021 18:55
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FRom one of my Chinese friends I got the following information:
On May 17, Zhurong Mars Rover will communicate with Tianwen-1 by ESA MarsExpress.
I would expect news from ESA were this true. -
#285 by eeergo on 15 May, 2021 21:01
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FRom one of my Chinese friends I got the following information:
On May 17, Zhurong Mars Rover will communicate with Tianwen-1 by ESA MarsExpress.
I would expect news from ESA were this true.
This was reported already last year: https://www.space.com/china-mars-mission-tianwen-1-international-partners.html Mars Express is backup, Tianwen-1's orbiter will remain prime. I suspect the comms session on the 17th will be the first trial.
""Successful space travel often means pooling resources, and at ESA we are happy to support the new Martian mission with our Estrack network of antennas as well as with our Mars Express spacecraft, currently in orbit at the Red Planet," ESA's Beatriz Arias told Space.com." -
#286 by Jeff Lerner on 15 May, 2021 21:17
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With apologies to Rocket Lab...
Pics or it didn't happen!
Jokes aside...I have to believe pictures have been taken...China has no obligation to share any pictures and I have no reason to believe they didn’t land successfully but.....
It would nice to have at least one picture....you know, just because ...
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#287 by luhai167 on 15 May, 2021 21:46
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Yes, since the comments does say mutual picuture, so the lander probably has a camera as well. That one is probably operating now, since unlike Chang'e landers, this one is rather Spartan, so I suspect we needs to have the rover fully deployed to start seeing quality pictures.With apologies to Rocket Lab...
Pics or it didn't happen!
Jokes aside...I have to believe pictures have been taken...China has no obligation to share any pictures and I have no reason to believe they didn’t land successfully but.....
It would nice to have at least one picture....you know, just because ... -
#288 by Dalhousie on 15 May, 2021 22:15
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Not to diminish a remarkable accomplishment, but I hope the Chinese followed strict sterilization protocols with the lander. It would be unfortunate if it was carrying microbes that could in time contaminate the Martian environment. Or maybe I'm exaggerating the problem? NASA follows these protocols for a reason.
Did the Soviets with Mars 3?
Yes.
You have a link to support that?
Brian Harvey 2007, Russian planetary exploration, Springer/Praxis, p 132 mentions sterilisation of lander components. Probes were also assembled in clean rooms.
V. G. Perminov (1999) The difficult road to Mars p52 (NASA monographs in aerospace history 15) gives more details. Components were sterilised by a range of techniques including gases (methyl bromide), radioactive and thermal. None of these techniques could be used with the completely assembled lander. The lander was assembled in a sterile facility equipped with air filtration and germicidal lamps.
This is fine for spacecraft landing in what we now know to be non special regions. We really need to stop assuming that the US is the only entity that cares about planetary protection.
A clean room is not sterile. So the sterilized components would have been contaminated.
Depends on How it was done. Phoenix had sterile components, but was assembled in a clean room. That's because the sampling arm would access zones with potential liquid water. The rest was only clean.
Opportunity, Spirit, Insight etc. were not sterilised, in whole or in part.
There is no general requirement that Mars landers have to be sterile, only clean. The Vikings were the only one that was sterilised as well as clean, because it had experiments onboard designed to culture organisms.
There was no need for the M71P landers to be sterilised, the procedures followed went above and beyond was what required at the time. There is no need in hindsight either, neither neither of the landers ended up in a potential "special region" (a more recent category).
There is no need for Zhurong to have any more than a reduced bioload. It's not in a potential special region, not will it access a such environments, nor is it a life detection mission.
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#289 by Dalhousie on 15 May, 2021 22:26
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With apologies to Rocket Lab...
Pics or it didn't happen!
Jokes aside...I have to believe pictures have been taken...China has no obligation to share any pictures and I have no reason to believe they didn’t land successfully but.....
It would nice to have at least one picture....you know, just because ...
Images from Yutu 1 and 2 are publically available, why wouldn't those from Zhurong likewise?
People just need to be patient. -
#290 by ccdengr on 15 May, 2021 22:29
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There is no general requirement that Mars landers have to be sterile, only clean.
All US Mars landers have been Category IV, and Cat IV requires "bioassays to enumerate the microbial burden, a probability of contamination analysis, an inventory of the bulk constituent organics, and an increased number of implementing procedures." See https://sma.nasa.gov/sma-disciplines/planetary-protection and https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/displayDir.cfm?Internal_ID=N_PR_8020_012D_&page_name=AppendixB&search_term=8020%2E12
It's true that having a low bioburden doesn't mean "sterile" but I'd say it means more than "clean". I've worked on a lot of Marsbound hardware that had no detectable bioburden when we shipped it.
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#291 by daedalus1 on 15 May, 2021 22:37
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Not to diminish a remarkable accomplishment, but I hope the Chinese followed strict sterilization protocols with the lander. It would be unfortunate if it was carrying microbes that could in time contaminate the Martian environment. Or maybe I'm exaggerating the problem? NASA follows these protocols for a reason.
Did the Soviets with Mars 3?
Yes.
You have a link to support that?
Brian Harvey 2007, Russian planetary exploration, Springer/Praxis, p 132 mentions sterilisation of lander components. Probes were also assembled in clean rooms.
V. G. Perminov (1999) The difficult road to Mars p52 (NASA monographs in aerospace history 15) gives more details. Components were sterilised by a range of techniques including gases (methyl bromide), radioactive and thermal. None of these techniques could be used with the completely assembled lander. The lander was assembled in a sterile facility equipped with air filtration and germicidal lamps.
This is fine for spacecraft landing in what we now know to be non special regions. We really need to stop assuming that the US is the only entity that cares about planetary protection.
A clean room is not sterile. So the sterilized components would have been contaminated.
Depends on How it was done. Phoenix had sterile components, but was assembled in a clean room. That's because the sampling arm would access zones with potential liquid water. The rest was only clean.
Opportunity, Spirit, Insight etc. were not sterilised, in whole or in part.
There is no general requirement that Mars landers have to be sterile, only clean. The Vikings were the only one that was sterilised as well as clean, because it had experiments onboard designed to culture organisms.
There was no need for the M71P landers to be sterilised, the procedures followed went above and beyond was what required at the time. There is no need in hindsight either, neither neither of the landers ended up in a potential "special region" (a more recent category).
There is no need for Zhurong to have any more than a reduced bioload. It's not in a potential special region, not will it access a such environments, nor is it a life detection mission.
If microbes can survive the 6 month exposure to the vacuum of space, then they can survive on Mars and be transported around the planet by dust storms. If they can't survive the 6 month journey, then what is the point of sterilizing the craft. -
#292 by Dalhousie on 15 May, 2021 23:08
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If microbes can survive the 6 month exposure to the vacuum of space, then they can survive on Mars and be transported around the planet by dust storms. If they can't survive the 6 month journey, then what is the point of sterilizing the craft.
This is a common misunderstanding.
The design specification of bioload for a IVa mission is an average ≤ 300 spores per square metre and a total bioload of no more than 3 x 105 spores.
Microbes are adapted to a specific range of environments, and require specific temperatures, pressures, food, liquid water, absence of toxins, and,in many cases, free oxygen. The interior of a spacecraft is inhospitable to microbes. The temperature extremes, low pressure, absence of water, oxygen and nutrients, and elevated cosmic radiation will kill most off.
Some will survive as spores. Spores are like seeds, they only activate when conditions are right.The surface of a spacecraft of Mars is extremely hostile to microbes. Not only do the low pressure, absence of oxygen and nutrients, and elevated cosmic radiation levels persist, but added to this is the presence of strongly oxidising saline dusts, and constant daytime irradiance with hard UV B and C. Moisture is still low and temperatures are even more extreme.
Under these conditions any surviving spores will not activate to form viable microbes, capable of metabolising and reproducing. They will be killed off over a period of time, experimentally probably with hours to days, depending on species. Any inside the lander may survive as spores for longer, protected from the UV and perhaps dust. But they similarly will be killed off with time due to the lack of essentials of life.
As for transmission by dust storms, this is unlikely in the extreme. First there won't be many spores to start with, secondly they will be killed off quickly on the surface of Mars. In the remote chance of a few being mobilised off the spacecraft surface by the wind, they will be killed off even paster because of even more exposure to the hostile environment. If they survive this then somehow have have to arrive in a surfacenevironment in which they can metabolise and reproduce. No such environments are known.
This is why a standard Mars lander or rover like Zhurong is not required by COSPAR to be sterile, only clean.
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#293 by Ollopa11 on 15 May, 2021 23:28
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If microbes can survive
I thought this was being moved to another thread? Totally irrelevant to today's wait for imagery! -
#294 by Dalhousie on 15 May, 2021 23:51
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There is no general requirement that Mars landers have to be sterile, only clean.
All US Mars landers have been Category IV, and Cat IV requires "bioassays to enumerate the microbial burden, a probability of contamination analysis, an inventory of the bulk constituent organics, and an increased number of implementing procedures." See https://sma.nasa.gov/sma-disciplines/planetary-protection and https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/displayDir.cfm?Internal_ID=N_PR_8020_012D_&page_name=AppendixB&search_term=8020%2E12
It's true that having a low bioburden doesn't mean "sterile" but I'd say it means more than "clean". I've worked on a lot of Marsbound hardware that had no detectable bioburden when we shipped it.
What term would you use? -
#295 by Dalhousie on 15 May, 2021 23:52
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If microbes can survive
I thought this was being moved to another thread? Totally irrelevant to today's wait for imagery!
Good idea. -
#296 by tangdou8 on 16 May, 2021 01:46
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With apologies to Rocket Lab...
Pics or it didn't happen!
Jokes aside...I have to believe pictures have been taken...China has no obligation to share any pictures and I have no reason to believe they didn’t land successfully but.....
It would nice to have at least one picture....you know, just because ...
The direct communication rate is only 16bps and only used to receive telemetry data
Since they only have their orbiter acts as a relay station, there would only be a 8-10 minutes window each day to transmit ~20Mbit data.
So, just be patient. -
#297 by Conexion Espacial on 16 May, 2021 02:12
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The Aerospace account of China published a few minutes ago what would be the first image of Mars taken by Zhurong, but now they have deleted it, it is a photo where it can be seen on a computer.
Along with the photo, they said that in a few hours the photos would be published officially and in high resolution.
luckily reach to download the photo. -
#298 by sanman on 16 May, 2021 11:38
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@2:29 - Professor Yang Yuguang from the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation mentions that China is planning to carry out a Mars sample return mission in the future. Are there any more details on this? -
#299 by chetan_chpd on 16 May, 2021 13:25
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Is last chang’e sample return misson payload size enough for mars sample return?
At least lander / return vehicle size could be similar...orbiter should require extra fuel to return
