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#40
by
Lee Jay
on 22 Jun, 2014 02:15
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This is why I think an SX50 would be great for this - $400, unbelievably good built-in stabilization, and a 24-1200mm equivalent zoom lens. You could start wide, zoom in, and zoom back out if you lost it.
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#41
by
Robotbeat
on 22 Jun, 2014 02:21
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So far we have Orbiter doing a live stream from an iPhone tomorrow and no SpaceX webcast. That's a big step up from nothing tomorrow!!! Even a moving dot is better than a nothing (heck, astronomers can pull an entire stellar system of exoplanets from the host star's single point of light). Anyone else?
Much appreciated, Orbiter! Maybe we can send you an add-on lens?
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#42
by
edkyle99
on 22 Jun, 2014 02:33
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By contrast, this is the same launch from the same place with an SLR with 400mm lens, cropped to 910mm-equivalent.
Right. It is important to understand that observers are miles away from the launch pads at the Cape - in some places more than 10 miles away. Even a good 400 mm zoom lens is insufficient for anything but a long view. Tracking cameras are really telescopes with much more magnification. Imagine the difficulty of hand-tracking a telescope on a moving object 10 miles distant! The optics alone present a technical challenge, though not an impossible challenge.
- Ed Kyle
I've tracked aircraft with my amateur telescope. This is certainly an option, though it requires skill to get a good view!
So have I and there's a product called Optic Tracker for this purpose. But even a Canon SX50 would be an enormous improvement (like 40x improvement) over a phone.
Nevermind streaming, though that would be great, but if the launch service provider doesn't webcast, just knowing that someone from NSF would be able to upload a decent video, or someones able to upload videos, after the fact would be good.
- Ed Kyle
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#43
by
Lar
on 22 Jun, 2014 03:23
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We're talking about just getting another view of the launch, not necessarily trying to compete with tracking scopes costing as much as a house. An iPhone is better than sparse Twitter updates.
Roger that. And if the community puts SOMETHING together, there is always upgrades. But finding a place, a source of power, an internet connection, and a volunteer seem like a big order. A location that could see multiple pads would be ideal.
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#44
by
mlindner
on 22 Jun, 2014 04:06
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Indeed. But my point is to not discourage anyone from contributing who may just have a phone (some smartphones even have a slight optical zoom these days...)
No point in using digital zooms. Those just crop the image and subsample the image. I've only found digital zooms good for when I'm showing things to older people who can't see right anymore.
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#45
by
Robotbeat
on 22 Jun, 2014 04:16
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Do we have any astrophotographers here with a fast slewing mount? That'd be SWEET!
But anyway, let's assemble an army of NSFers with smartphones near launch sites:
1) Me, iphone 4s, in Virginia
2) Orbiter, iphone something, in Florida now
3) ChrisWilson68 West Coast.
Any other volunteers? If you've got something more sophisticated, all the better! But even a regular smartphone with 3g/4g/wifi will do.
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#46
by
Robotbeat
on 22 Jun, 2014 04:21
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Indeed. But my point is to not discourage anyone from contributing who may just have a phone (some smartphones even have a slight optical zoom these days...)
No point in using digital zooms. Those just crop the image and subsample the image. I've only found digital zooms good for when I'm showing things to older people who can't see right anymore.
I've explained this a few times, now... When you're live streaming, the streaming app will sub-sample your video to whatever your bandwidth can handle, say, 640x480. All the detail will be subsampled out unless you use digital zoom beforehand. You /want/ to crop it beforehand, since you have such a bottleneck. This is only true for live streams, obviously, where bandwidth is a consideration.
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#47
by
mlindner
on 22 Jun, 2014 04:27
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Indeed. But my point is to not discourage anyone from contributing who may just have a phone (some smartphones even have a slight optical zoom these days...)
No point in using digital zooms. Those just crop the image and subsample the image. I've only found digital zooms good for when I'm showing things to older people who can't see right anymore.
I've explained this a few times, now... When you're live streaming, the streaming app will sub-sample your video to whatever your bandwidth can handle, say, 640x480. All the detail will be subsampled out unless you use digital zoom beforehand. You /want/ to crop it beforehand, since you have such a bottleneck. This is only true for live streams, obviously, where bandwidth is a consideration.
Was not aware of that feature. Would think the streaming software would buffer the streaming if it could not upload fast enough, or stream a low res temporarily with the full res coming as a delayed-cast.
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#48
by
Robotbeat
on 22 Jun, 2014 04:47
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Well, the iPhone 4s has an 8MP sensor. Full HD is just 2MP, and even Livestream's "HD" is only 0.9MP. "High" quality Livestream is just 0.4MP or so, and you'd be lucky to get that. So with the iPhone sensor and just the regular iPhone optics, you're probably way better off using digital zoom if you're broadcasting a launch where the part you're interested in is very small.
BTW, the Livestream app is better than the UStream app in that the Livestream app lets you do some digital zoom (also seems to work a little smoother). I tried it out. But unfortunately, even that modest zoom apparently isn't operating on the data stream from the sensor itself, since you see a big quality drop just for a 3x digital zoom. Apparently, the Livestream app is getting a reduced-quality stream from the sensor (probably like 768x432 or so) and is cropping /that/ stream instead of the stream from the sensor itself, which kind of sucks. Oh well. May still be worth it if you have crappy bandwidth. And I suppose as long as you're steady and aren't cropping out anything interesting, then you may as well go for the digital zoom all the way to 3x (but 1.5x may be more appropriate).
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#49
by
CJ
on 22 Jun, 2014 05:19
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Thanks to all for doing this.
I live in Arizona so I won't be any use most of the time, but I'll be in Cocoa Beach, Florida, in November. I could set up a video camera (not a phone camera) a tripod as close as I can get (I'm thinking maybe Jetty Park area? ). I do not have a smartphone, nor any means of sending data with a phone, but I have a laptop, and I'd be willing to stay at a hotel with WiFi if it'd also make a good viewing spot.
Another possible location (though one I don't know how to livestream from) is offshore. A third option is from somewhere in KSC, assuming they are open.
I've never livestreamed before, so I'd need some advice figuring out how. (I do know how to hook my video camera up to my laptop though; that part is easy). It's also a moot point unless the launch is from Canaveral in November (It's a biz trip, I cannot change the schedule).
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#50
by
Sean Lynch
on 22 Jun, 2014 05:48
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Can't help myself, but storm chasers have the mobile video, live streaming technology nailed.
spotternetwork, Storm Chasing Network, etc might be able to lend some tech advice...and maybe spotters in FL would even be willing to lend a hand.
A good place to post a query might be Jeff Masters Blog on wunderground.com, as there are a LOT of folks from Fl that hang out there.
I lurk the wunderground(as zampaz)
hth
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#51
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 22 Jun, 2014 06:30
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I don't know what kind of equipment they are using, but this Japanese team is doing exactly what is being discussed here for all Japanese launches and other space flight related events:
http://www.youtube.com/user/nvslivecom
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#52
by
arnezami
on 22 Jun, 2014 06:34
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I'd miss the view from the rocket cam, though. Do you think we could get that feed from SpaceX?
Can someone built this and point it at the rocket?
I
love that idea!
And that nice antenna... ...until they start encrypting the feed!
Agreed. Encryption with a stream cypher would disable that possibility. I doubt they encrypt it right now though. But yes in the end they can (and should) encrypt the data they want to keep to themselves (for example the telemetry only).
@Chris: it might be a good idea to know how SpaceX thinks about this. Maybe we/you can ask this after the current launch. "Would SpaceX think it's ok if we were try to receive the video stream using some sort of an antenna and webcast it live?"
Regards,
arnezami
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#53
by
MP99
on 22 Jun, 2014 06:47
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I'd miss the view from the rocket cam, though. Do you think we could get that feed from SpaceX?
Can someone built this and point it at the rocket?
I love that idea!
And that nice antenna... ...until they start encrypting the feed!
Agreed. Encryption with a stream cypher would disable that possibility. I doubt they encrypt it right now though. But yes in the end they can (and should) encrypt the data they want to keep to themselves (for example the telemetry only).
I'd think they'd have to due to ITAR.
Cheers, Martin
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#54
by
mlindner
on 22 Jun, 2014 07:22
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Well, the iPhone 4s has an 8MP sensor. Full HD is just 2MP, and even Livestream's "HD" is only 0.9MP. "High" quality Livestream is just 0.4MP or so, and you'd be lucky to get that. So with the iPhone sensor and just the regular iPhone optics, you're probably way better off using digital zoom if you're broadcasting a launch where the part you're interested in is very small.
This assumes that it's not automatically down sampling the sensor to get the 2MP. If you combine the light from 4 pixels into one you can get much better framerates at lower light levels. It might (and I almost think) be doing this.
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#55
by
arnezami
on 22 Jun, 2014 09:05
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#56
by
g4ayu
on 22 Jun, 2014 09:23
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There might be another way to get good quality pictures of a launch from Floriday.
There's a ham radio organisation in Brevard County called LISATS (
www.lisats.org ).
They have a voice repeater but also an amateur TV repeater (K4ATV/R in Cocoa) which outputs on cable channel 58
(427.25 Mhz). They say it can be received within a 20 mile radius.
So a mobile amateur tv transmitter at say Jetty Park could send a signal to the repeater.
The repeater output would then just need to be webstreamed, similar to what they do on
www.batc.tv
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#57
by
AJA
on 22 Jun, 2014 10:39
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A bit more advanced than just running iPhones, but it will also yield quality that we as a community are used to. However, I will be unavailable to run it. Will need help from the community.
THIS.
There should be a few colleges near both KSC and VAFB with photo/video-graphy clubs shouldn't they? Many universities have their own TV channels, and wannabe/current internet broadcasters. Give them NSF media credentials (akin to how Chris got Helodriver into the Dragon v2 unveiling) and have them help out. a) it's more or less free: they help us out in return for getting closer to launches than would be feasible otherwise. It's not hard to rustle up some excitement amongst college students for launches b) As hobbyists, they'll probably have some good cameramen etc.
Of course, this only works for launches where the launching organisation hasn't embargoed/classified launch feed; but rather has simply not bothered to livestream. I think the fraction of launches that fall into this category is quite small. But that's why reaching out to videography/broadcast enthusiasts is sensible. They'll have most/all of the equipment anyway, and we won't have to make that incremental spend, only for sporadic use.
Also, I don't think Chris would be willing to give something shot with an iPhone an NSF stamp. It simply doesn't fit in with the amount and depth of detail available on various stories on the rest of the site. Maybe something that lives only within the forums, sure... but not an "Official" NSF broadcast.
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#58
by
tobi453
on 22 Jun, 2014 11:01
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After having a relationship with your girlfirend/boyfriend for many years he/she suddenly breaks up with a SMS/tweet: "There is no special reason, but I don't love you any more. Bye."
You know you are not entitled to get a proper explanation. How is this difficult to understand?
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#59
by
CuddlyRocket
on 22 Jun, 2014 11:07
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Although I agree that SpaceX is a commercial company fully entitled to decide what's in its own interests so far as any kind of publicity is concerned, private citizens are equally entitled to decide amongst themselves whether or not to film and distribute events visible from public or other private property where any necessary consents have been obtained. It's the kind of thing enthusiasts tend to do - you can find on the net many, many videos of what most people would consider routine movements of planes, ships, trains and cars etc.
Perhaps Chris or someone could approach SpaceX offering to take over the webcasts!
