Author Topic: Sub orbital SpaceX  (Read 5824 times)

Offline Adaptation

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Sub orbital SpaceX
« on: 03/19/2014 04:20 am »
So you probably think that's a step backwards but I think its a market segment that's worth considering.  The biggest part of the market is defiantly human flight but there is a decent number of experiments that are hard to conduct with just the 30 seconds offered by aircraft and wouldn't need a weeks long trip on a dragon lab.

The idea is to add small amounts of payload to areas where flight computers or other such hardware is stored on a first stage for RTLS missions. 

You can always do the people stuff too.  Could put preflown dragon riders on grasshopper 2 with three tourists and an attendant would be one hell of a ride. 
« Last Edit: 03/19/2014 04:21 am by Adaptation »

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #1 on: 03/19/2014 04:30 am »
Sorry, I don't see it.

Carrying small sub-orbital payloads on the first stage during an orbital launch is just a distraction and the addition of more things that can go wrong.  It's not worth the risk.  Plus, if there's margin available for that, that extra margin can be used instead for secondary orbital payloads, or risk-reduction on orbital insertion of the primary.

Flying people on Dragon and a F9 first stage on a sub-orbital-only flight is gross overkill.  It would be far more expensive than SpaceShipTwo and more dangerous.  It's also a big huge distraction for SpaceX.  SpaceX has enough things to do already, the last thing they need is something like this to dilute their focus.

Offline Adaptation

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #2 on: 03/19/2014 04:40 am »
I'm sure your right, many smaller rocket companies are barley scraping by.  SpaceX  probably is in a situation where they can afford to step over all the nickles and dimes, after all its hard to stop and grab them when your at a full on run. 
« Last Edit: 03/19/2014 04:42 am by Adaptation »

Offline Norm38

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #3 on: 03/19/2014 12:46 pm »
There are a couple business concepts to consider.  One is straight ROI - can they make money on an activity.  But the other is Opportunity Cost - can they make more money doing something else?

It's not about being able to afford stepping over nickels and dimes.  It's about telling the guy who's picking up dollars to go pick up nickels instead.  He can't do both, so it leads to less money coming in on the long run.

If there's a business case for suborbital, then let another company handle it.

Offline Kaputnik

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #4 on: 03/19/2014 01:52 pm »
It's not as if there isn't a precedent for suborbital secondaries on an orbital mission- ESA's ARD on the 3rd Ariane V flight comes to mind.
I'd imagine SpaceX would be open to hosting compatible payloads on the flyback stages, it doesn't seem any different in principle to cubesat secondaries, and you get to have your hardware back at no extra cost too!
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Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #5 on: 03/19/2014 01:59 pm »
I am wondering whether SpaceX could charge visitors to the New Mexico Spaceport money to watch F9R testflights. It sure would be quite a spectacle and it could maybe help with paying for the fuel, or rent there.
That's about the extent of suborbital business, I see SpaceX doing though.

Offline Jim

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #6 on: 03/19/2014 02:59 pm »
The issue is what is the point?  For expendable stages, it might makes sense since the stage continues on a ballistic path and might have some good micro gravity and view of the atmosphere.  Recovery down range is an issue.

A reusable RTLS stage is not a good platform, it is thrusting, maneuvering and spewing gases everywhere.  So you have to find a need that can deal with the environment.

Offline Llian Rhydderch

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #7 on: 03/19/2014 03:49 pm »
There are a couple business concepts to consider.  One is straight ROI - can they make money on an activity.  But the other is Opportunity Cost - can they make more money doing something else?

It's not about being able to afford stepping over nickels and dimes.  It's about telling the guy who's picking up dollars to go pick up nickels instead.  He can't do both, so it leads to less money coming in on the long run.

If there's a business case for suborbital, then let another company handle it.

Well I tend to agree with most of the pessimists here, who say that it is not something SpaceX will do, or should do.  And the opportunity cost tradeoff is an especially strong argument in that regard.

Having said that, let's do a thought experiment on Adaptation's idea.  For the sake of the thought experiment, I'll say that I am agnostic on the "should do it"/"should not do it" aspect of the idea for SpaceX.

Let's say SpaceX gets both booster reusability back to launch pad, and DragonRider propulsive vertical landings working reliably, and economically. (we assume here there are no show-stopper surprises in getting the vehicles back, nor in successfully reusing them for orbital purposes, pretty much along the lines that SpaceX is already pursuing with their publicly-announced near-term goals (one to three years out).

And let's say that SpaceX does not choose to pursue anything along the lines of a suborbital transport market, whether it is for greener pastures elsewhere or for any other reason.

Now, with those assumptions in place, let's start our thought experiment:

We already know that there will be some "demand" for a suborbital fast transport technique.  Whether it will be, or ever could be, "economical" is an open question.

We already know that some companies (e.g. Virgin Galactic, ...) and some government cooperative institutes (e.g., DLR and their SpaceLiner concept, etc.) are in design (but not yet build) for providing the "supply" of such services.

Given that SpaceX would have demonstrated that both
 - booster reusability and propulsive capsule rentry and reusability are economic in the orbital space transport regime,
 - and have explicitly chosen not to do pursue the sub-orbital gig with their technology,

Then this presents a perfect opportunity for some other entrepreneurial startup to go after the market themselves, only they now have much more knowledge on the "possibilities" of the reusable propulsive technology and the approximate "economics" (costs to supply such a service) than SpaceX had in 2002.  They can, just as many entrepreneurs do, "imitate" something that is already successful, and undertake an endeavor to move that technology into a new area of application, different from those who first demonstrated it.

Moreover, the risks they take in that entrepreneurial enterprise are the standard ones.  "What will be the demand for my service if I offer it?"  "Will my enterprise be successful at designing/building/testing the requisite technology to accomplish the business objectives?"  "Will my business plan to deliver some new "service" (suborbital spaceflight, rapid delivery of people across the planet, etc.) be sufficiently successful that people might be willing to pay enough for to make it worth it to me to provide such a service?"

Of course, the ways in which this might be done are myriad, and the timing by which this might be done are long-term, and unknown in any case.  {So let's avoid the debate in this thread on whether this is in 10 or 20 or 50 years.}

An entrepreneur might decide to develop some or all of the technologies that SpaceX has developed, over some years.  Or multiple entrepreneurs might compete with various developments and offerings in this suborbital areana.  Or some entrepreneur might choose to license technologies from SpaceX for the suborbital market?  (this is a thought experiment, so best to just assume that this licensing might, under some set of conditions and at some point in time, be possible.)

And nothing in this thought experiment assumes a successful outcome; any entrepreneur pursuing this, or several of them, may very well go bankrupt and down in flames if they fail once started.

The point is that once SpaceX demonstrates that "it can be done", that "human technology has advanced to the point where reusable boosters and propulsively-landed space transport capsules can be reused", any entrepreneur, in any country, can jump into the water knowing that a significant part of the technology risk for the enterprise is much less than it was a few short years ago.

There is no reason to assume that such an entrepreneur won't use the idea of SpaceX technology, or license the technology directly from SpaceX, to supply some sort of suborbital high-speed transport market.  (in line with the idea of Adaptation, the original poster.)

What will emerge after that technology success by SpaceX occurs, if it occurs, is unknown, and unknowable.

(An analogue that might help some of you with this:  This is similar to what it was in 1904 for aviation; once the first human flight occurred, the progress in aviation forms and function, and in applications for aviation services, just grew for 100+ years.  Once the Wright brothers and other early pioneers did what they did, and the news got out, the race was on!  Imitation and entrepreneurial action was the way aviation progressed.)

So I say, SpaceX' demonstration of their reusable boosters and propulsively-landed space transport capsules, ostensibly in the next few years, will be seminally important to whatever industry grows up after it, whether SpaceX chooses to license any part of their technology or not.
« Last Edit: 03/19/2014 04:03 pm by Llian Rhydderch »
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Online Robotbeat

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #8 on: 03/19/2014 05:06 pm »
Reusable launch, both orbital and suborbital, are already clearly possible. And there are already folks working on it from both ends. Blue Origin (which started earlier than SpaceX) is working on both orbital and suborbital VTVL RLVs. Masten is working on and doing suborbital VTVL RLVs. XCOR is working on suborbital HTHL RLVs (and full orbital on the back-burner, starting with nanosats on Lynx). That's just in the US.
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Offline douglas100

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #9 on: 03/19/2014 10:11 pm »
What Robotbeat said (except you didn't mention Virgin Galactic  :) )

The question is not SpaceX's technology but the size of the suborbital market and whether they will decide to go after it in the near future. My guess is that they won't. They have plenty to do already.

Douglas Clark

Offline Avron

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #10 on: 03/20/2014 12:16 am »
I wonder how this thread ties in with "SpaceX was founded under the belief that a future where humanity is out exploring the stars is fundamentally more exciting than one where we are not." - http://www.spacex.com/careers

Offline mikelepage

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #11 on: 03/20/2014 07:24 am »
Interesting - like the others I don't think SpaceX would do it, but I don't see any reason they wouldn't license out their Falcon9R first stages:

Imagine this for a PTP travel network scenario.  Each spaceport has a number of first stages which they launch straight up several times a day, and allowing them to land nearby (cycling through them as necessary).  Each "payload" is actually several small spaceplanes, each with a small spaceshiptwo style rocket and a supersonic ramjet engine.  That would mean landings could occur anywhere that could take a small plane (and probably would be restricted to smaller runways since the big airports are already so busy). 

PTP spaceports could be anywhere with enough space since you aren't worried about achieving orbital velocities.  Launch could would consist of showing up to the spaceport, getting into the spaceplane at ground level and getting strapped in as it is mounted to the 1st stage rocket, being lifted up to vertical in preparation for launch, and then launch.  If you can go anywhere in the world in 2 hours or less, and they can get mounting to the rocket and lift to vertical orientation done in less than an hour, that means its probably going to be useful for all those 5+ hour flights, and awesome if it means you avoid a 13h SYD-LAX leg or something like that.

Offline Llian Rhydderch

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #12 on: 03/20/2014 03:04 pm »
Reusable launch, both orbital and suborbital, are already clearly possible. And there are already folks working on it from both ends. Blue Origin (which started earlier than SpaceX) is working on both orbital and suborbital VTVL RLVs. Masten is working on and doing suborbital VTVL RLVs. XCOR is working on suborbital HTHL RLVs (and full orbital on the back-burner, starting with nanosats on Lynx). That's just in the US.

I completely agree with you:  Virgin Gallatic, XCOR Aerospace, Masten and Blue Origin are all working on a variety of suborbital solutions.

However, every one of them are working at a scale that in terms of delta-V is nearly two orders of magnitude less than what the existing SpaceX technology is doing.  If any, or all, of them scale up their technology, they could of course participate in suborbital point to point, as Virgin and XCOR both have released plans to do so several years out with microsat-scale payloads.  And that may very well be adequate for some point-to-point "package" cargo markets.

But what the OP was saying was about scaling down the SpaceX-class technology to serve a conceivable market for suborbital point-to-point, and not restricting it to small packages.

I then made the point that once SpaceX' has demonstrated their reusable boosters and propulsively-landed space transport capsules, other entrants could enter the market to provide SpaceX-scale suborbital solutions, whether they build the tech themselves, or license it from SpaceX.


Well I tend to agree with most of the pessimists here, who say that it is not something SpaceX will do, or should do.  And the opportunity cost tradeoff is an especially strong argument in that regard.

Having said that, let's do a thought experiment on Adaptation's idea.  For the sake of the thought experiment, I'll say that I am agnostic on the "should do it"/"should not do it" aspect of the idea for SpaceX.

Let's say SpaceX gets both booster reusability back to launch pad, and DragonRider propulsive vertical landings working reliably, and economically. (we assume here there are no show-stopper surprises in getting the vehicles back, nor in successfully reusing them for orbital purposes, pretty much along the lines that SpaceX is already pursuing with their publicly-announced near-term goals (one to three years out).

And let's say that SpaceX does not choose to pursue anything along the lines of a suborbital transport market, whether it is for greener pastures elsewhere or for any other reason.

Now, with those assumptions in place, let's start our thought experiment:

We already know that there will be some "demand" for a suborbital fast transport technique.  Whether it will be, or ever could be, "economical" is an open question.

We already know that some companies (e.g. Virgin Galactic, ...) and some government cooperative institutes (e.g., DLR and their SpaceLiner concept, etc.) are in design (but not yet build) for providing the "supply" of such services.

Given that SpaceX would have demonstrated that both
 - booster reusability and propulsive capsule rentry and reusability are economic in the orbital space transport regime,
 - and have explicitly chosen not to do pursue the sub-orbital gig with their technology,

Then this presents a perfect opportunity for some other entrepreneurial startup to go after the market themselves, only they now have much more knowledge on the "possibilities" of the reusable propulsive technology and the approximate "economics" (costs to supply such a service) than SpaceX had in 2002.  They can, just as many entrepreneurs do, "imitate" something that is already successful, and undertake an endeavor to move that technology into a new area of application, different from those who first demonstrated it.

Moreover, the risks they take in that entrepreneurial enterprise are the standard ones.  "What will be the demand for my service if I offer it?"  "Will my enterprise be successful at designing/building/testing the requisite technology to accomplish the business objectives?"  "Will my business plan to deliver some new "service" (suborbital spaceflight, rapid delivery of people across the planet, etc.) be sufficiently successful that people might be willing to pay enough for to make it worth it to me to provide such a service?"

Of course, the ways in which this might be done are myriad, and the timing by which this might be done are long-term, and unknown in any case.  {So let's avoid the debate in this thread on whether this is in 10 or 20 or 50 years.}

An entrepreneur might decide to develop some or all of the technologies that SpaceX has developed, over some years.  Or multiple entrepreneurs might compete with various developments and offerings in this suborbital areana.  Or some entrepreneur might choose to license technologies from SpaceX for the suborbital market?  (this is a thought experiment, so best to just assume that this licensing might, under some set of conditions and at some point in time, be possible.)

And nothing in this thought experiment assumes a successful outcome; any entrepreneur pursuing this, or several of them, may very well go bankrupt and down in flames if they fail once started.

The point is that once SpaceX demonstrates that "it can be done", that "human technology has advanced to the point where reusable boosters and propulsively-landed space transport capsules can be reused", any entrepreneur, in any country, can jump into the water knowing that a significant part of the technology risk for the enterprise is much less than it was a few short years ago.

There is no reason to assume that such an entrepreneur won't use the idea of SpaceX technology, or license the technology directly from SpaceX, to supply some sort of suborbital high-speed transport market.  (in line with the idea of Adaptation, the original poster.)

What will emerge after that technology success by SpaceX occurs, if it occurs, is unknown, and unknowable.

(An analogue that might help some of you with this:  This is similar to what it was in 1904 for aviation; once the first human flight occurred, the progress in aviation forms and function, and in applications for aviation services, just grew for 100+ years.  Once the Wright brothers and other early pioneers did what they did, and the news got out, the race was on!  Imitation and entrepreneurial action was the way aviation progressed.)

So I say, SpaceX' demonstration of their reusable boosters and propulsively-landed space transport capsules, ostensibly in the next few years, will be seminally important to whatever industry grows up after it, whether SpaceX chooses to license any part of their technology or not.


Of course, any of Virgin Gallatic, XCOR Aerospace, Masten and Blue Origin could be some of those "entrants" into the  SpaceX-large-scale suborbital point-to-point market.  But it need not be limited to them.

Once feasibility is demonstrated by SpaceX, bringing back orbital boosters and propulsively-landed capsules, other entrepreneurs may also enter, possibly backed by new rounds of big finance, potentially leapfrogging the smaller or less-well-funded established players.  This has occurred many times, in many industries, once technology feasibility has been demonstrated.

Thus, SpaceX successful demonstration of their reusable orbital technology is key to the mid-term development of any large-scale suborbital point-to-point market.
Re arguments from authority on NSF:  "no one is exempt from error, and errors of authority are usually the worst kind.  Taking your word for things without question is no different than a bracket design not being tested because the designer was an old hand."
"You would actually save yourself time and effort if you were to use evidence and logic to make your points instead of wrapping yourself in the royal mantle of authority.  The approach only works on sheep, not inquisitive, intelligent people."

Offline douglas100

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Re: Sub orbital SpaceX
« Reply #13 on: 03/20/2014 09:47 pm »
The whole business of commercial point-to-point suborbital has been discussed already here.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28523.0

I don't think SpaceX are going to address that market (assuming a viable market will exist in the future) and I don't think their vertical take off and landing technology is the best technical solution to serving such a market.
Douglas Clark

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