Is Musk Close to Over-Extending His Financial Abilities/Assets?

[meekGee]

The NUMMI plant does everything from metal stamping to interior plastics. If you follow up, he even plans to manufacture the batteries. That's pretty vertical.  Most other high volume attempts at EV or hybrid (Leaf, volt, Prius) were nothing like Roadster or the S.

A few years ago I spoke with him a few times. He is most definitely involved in detailed tech design.

You can't compare Telsa with GM or Toyota methods.

Telsa only builds a single car model. They discontinued the Roadster to work on the Model S.

GM and Toyota have much broader product lines and numerous factories and suppliers. It makes sense to them to share the same tooling for Gas / Hybrid / Electric autos, and just make adjustments for the powertrain. There aren't that differences between a fully plug-in electric Prius and the Gas / Electric Hybrid version of the Prius.

They don't manufacture all their components, but they definitely have design input into each detail.

Also, you can't really talk about high-volume auto manufacture until you reach the same output as the Honda factory that is cranking out Civics and Accords.

Well, I think they're working on the X model without planning to discontinue S, and then on the E model, again, without plans to discontinue either X or S.

Roadster was the first thing they did, and to the point - was not vertically integrated.  That's why it's gone.

I say high-volume, since that's where they're headed with these models, in terms of manufacturing setup.  Roadster was a boutique car, in comparison.

When talking about vertical integration, the absolute key thing to notice is the battery plant. 

It's the opposite of outsourcing.  It's the philosophy that says that if something is important to the company, it should be manufactured in-house, and you should retain the knowledge, and if possible - you should be the best in the world at it.

Anyway - to stay on topic - the reason this is important is that when you bring things in-house, you can leverage them towards other goals. This is important for Musk, since he does span multiple industries.

His next goal is Mars, right?  How much Mars-specific equipment will he need?  He will want the industrial base to design and manufacture such.  A car company and a rocket company is a good place to start.

[woods170]

Musk has mentioned that there is something to be said for a keeping a business within the same family. He has mentionned the Ford family as an example that he would like to follow. He wants to pass on his companies to his sons. He doesn't intend to take the Buffet pledge and give most of his money to charity.

Too late.  Musk has already signed the Buffett Pledge...

http://givingpledge.org/

As for Musk, he knows his rocket down to the gnat's ass (in his words).  Jim shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that he's not intimately involved.

Jim will undoubtly spank you (and me) for that remark, but fact is that Jim does not work for SpaceX so he has no intimate insight into what level (and detail) Elon Musk is involved in his companies rockets and spaceships. On the other hand, you and me do not have that insight either.

[yg1968]

Not true.  The funds are not transferable. They are isolated from each other.

Unsubstantiated. 

Distributions can be used however an equity owner desires; particularly in a privately held company.

If Tesla pays dividends on its common shares, it would have to pay dividends to all of its shareholders which seems unlikely.

[yg1968]

Musk has mentioned that there is something to be said for a keeping a business within the same family. He has mentionned the Ford family as an example that he would like to follow. He wants to pass on his companies to his sons. He doesn't intend to take the Buffet pledge and give most of his money to charity.

Too late.  Musk has already signed the Buffett Pledge...

http://givingpledge.org/

He must have changed his mind. He refused to sign on to the pledge initially for the reasons that I mentionned. This might force SpaceX to eventually become public. In which case, you can forget about a Mars mission being privately funded by SpaceX.

[RocketGoBoom]

Elon Musk paid for it and his job title says, "Chief Designer".

No, it is Chief Technology Officer.  Big difference.  He sets the course (like choice of propellants) but the others like Mueller (pintle injector) got him there.

Jim,
You are just wrong so often it is getting silly. Elon's titles are CEO and "Chief Designer". Anyone with the common sense to check their website would know that.

http://www.spacex.com/about/leadership

Fair mistake- if you look at Wikipedia it says CEO and CTO, so perhaps it changed?

The point is, Jim doesn't check before going on attack. He seems to like to take one sentence (or even just a few words), quote only that, then ignore the bulk of the rest of what was written in a larger paragraph. Then he makes some silly contrary statement limited to perhaps, "unsubstantiated" or "hype". Is this viewed as enlightened discussion here? I am new to this website, but Jim just seems to be trolling. Were all 20,000 of his posts like that?

[starsilk]

Elon Musk paid for it and his job title says, "Chief Designer".

No, it is Chief Technology Officer.  Big difference.  He sets the course (like choice of propellants) but the others like Mueller (pintle injector) got him there.

Jim,
You are just wrong so often it is getting silly. Elon's titles are CEO and "Chief Designer". Anyone with the common sense to check their website would know that.

http://www.spacex.com/about/leadership

Fair mistake- if you look at Wikipedia it says CEO and CTO, so perhaps it changed?

The point is, Jim doesn't check before going on attack. He seems to like to take one sentence (or even just a few words), quote only that, then ignore the bulk of the rest of what was written in a larger paragraph. Then he makes some silly contrary statement limited to perhaps, "unsubstantiated" or "hype". Is this viewed as enlightened discussion here? I am new to this website, but Jim just seems to be trolling. Were all 20,000 of his posts like that?

Jim knows a *lot* about rockets. a *lot*. however his posting style is sometimes a bit.. er.. brusque, shall we say.

best to be very, very sure you are correct before arguing with him.

[RocketGoBoom]

best to be very, very sure you are correct before arguing with him.

I was.

http://www.spacex.com/about/leadership

[RocketGoBoom]

Not true.  The funds are not transferable. They are isolated from each other.

Unsubstantiated. 

Distributions can be used however an equity owner desires; particularly in a privately held company.

If Tesla pays dividends on its common shares, it would have to pay dividends to all of its shareholders which seems unlikely.

I have wondered where Elon gets cash to fund the billionaire lifestyle. His listed salary from Tesla is small, something like $39,000. He doesn't draw a paycheck from Solar City.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=tsla&ql=1

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=SCTY+Profile

He also doesn't have any history of selling shares in either company. So who pays for the jet, the mansion, etc? All loans from Goldman Sachs against his stock?

[starsilk]

best to be very, very sure you are correct before arguing with him.

I was.

http://www.spacex.com/about/leadership

treasure your 'win'. people who post here save a small, satisfied place in their hearts for the rare occasions they successfully argued a point with Jim. it doesn't happen often... and listen to what he says - he's usually right. you'll learn a lot.

[RocketGoBoom]

best to be very, very sure you are correct before arguing with him.

I was.

http://www.spacex.com/about/leadership

treasure your 'win'. people who post here save a small, satisfied place in their hearts for the rare occasions they successfully argued a point with Jim. it doesn't happen often... and listen to what he says - he's usually right. you'll learn a lot.

Does he work for ULA? He seems to have some axe to grind or latent hostility to all things SpaceX.

[Lars_J]

treasure your 'win'. people who post here save a small, satisfied place in their hearts for the rare occasions they successfully argued a point with Jim. it doesn't happen often... and listen to what he says - he's usually right. you'll learn a lot.

What is this, the starsilk "Jim worship hour"?

He has a lot of expertise in a certain area, but that doesn't have to translate over to other areas. (i.e finance, as this thread illustrates) While he may forget the range of his knowledge, we don't have to. Appeal to authority is a poor substitute for facts.

[starsilk]

treasure your 'win'. people who post here save a small, satisfied place in their hearts for the rare occasions they successfully argued a point with Jim. it doesn't happen often... and listen to what he says - he's usually right. you'll learn a lot.

What is this, the starsilk "Jim worship hour"?

hardly. I've had my share of arguments with him, and even won a couple. but he's usually fair, and rarely wrong.

we're well off topic here.

[Jim]

best to be very, very sure you are correct before arguing with him.

I was.

http://www.spacex.com/about/leadership

Only because you're late to the party.
His original title was CTO and CEO.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090203054220/http://spacex.com/company.php#spacex_people

[R7]

[neoforce]

Musk has mentioned that there is something to be said for a keeping a business within the same family. He has mentionned the Ford family as an example that he would like to follow. He wants to pass on his companies to his sons. He doesn't intend to take the Buffet pledge and give most of his money to charity.

Too late.  Musk has already signed the Buffett Pledge...

http://givingpledge.org/

He must have changed his mind. He refused to sign on to the pledge initially for the reasons that I mentionned. This might force SpaceX to eventually become public. In which case, you can forget about a Mars mission being privately funded by SpaceX.

How can signing the giving pledge have any impact on if/when spacex becomes public?  From the FAQ at giving pledge:

ONCE SOMEONE PLEDGES, HOW WILL YOU MAKE SURE THEY FOLLOW THROUGH?
The pledge is a moral commitment to give, not a legal contract.

I see no way that this pledge will "force SpaceX eventually become public" 

[Chris Bergin]

Thread has turned into some thing stupid. Locked.