Author Topic: Quantum Gravitons Resemble a Doubled Gluon  (Read 10720 times)

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Quantum Gravitons Resemble a Doubled Gluon
« on: 01/16/2014 07:07 pm »
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=search-for-new-physics

these guys are not kooks. they could be wrong but they are not your usual fringe shady science types. they are recipients of the Sakurai prize:

https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/news/2013-10-18-Dixon-Sakurai.aspx

according to them their analysis using post feynman analytical tools says that a graviton appears to be a double copy of a gluon which is the force carrier for the strong nuclear force.

a discussion of the history of their analytical mathematics may be found here:

 http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/10/03/guest-post-lance-dixon-on-calculating-amplitudes/

The guest makes a valiant attempt at "layman"izing the math involved.

anyway let me just point out that to me this appears to be very similar to a certain famous/infamous fringe scientist's claims about gravity and the strong force being essentially the same thing.

When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6306
  • Liked: 1485
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Quantum Gravitons Resemble a Doubled Gluon
« Reply #1 on: 01/16/2014 08:51 pm »
Quote
The force of gravity looks like two copies of the strong subnuclear interactions working in unison.



I don't even know how to read that. But does their conjecture make any predictions that can be tested in order to improve confidence in it? Would this require LHC-scale energies to do it?

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Quantum Gravitons Resemble a Doubled Gluon
« Reply #2 on: 01/16/2014 09:41 pm »
I'll only address the parts i understand well enough to make an intelligent reply to. and my information comes from the interview of the coauthor where he goes into the background of the math.

when Feynman's method became too cumbersome to use to advance the physics anymore researchers developed a new type of formalism to simplify the process a sort of super dimensional analysis that removed redundancies and reduced fractions and the like. this new formalism was advanced an refined over time to the form it is in now. to verify that the math was valid they checked it verses all the known feynman solutions and got the same results. not only that but at the time the new formalism was coming out they applied it to problems for which the feynman approach was in the process of solving prior to the announcements of the feynman derived results. Thus their new formalisms predicted the answers the feynman eventually produced.


when the feynman derived answers came they matched the new formalism's answers. the formalism has been around since the late eighties or early nineties and is pretty well vetted.   

the new formalism derives accurate descriptions of the physics in complete agreement with the older solutions. it has predicted stuff that was later confirmed by the older feynman formalism. there is every reason to believe that it has accurate predictive and descriptive power.

now i am not a theorist or a mathematician. it surprised me that feynman's method produced hundreds of thousands of diagrams for just one problem. i had trouble enough understanding the dozen or so commonly given in high school text books :) but i do think that the new method is completely valid.

EDIT:  now it is entirely possible for solutions to come from theory that are only mathematical results that no one looks for in the real world. the math may be right but the solution is in a set of solutions that do not occur in the real world. that happens. I sure hope that their "gluon = graviton" thing is not in that category. i want it to be true because if it is we will reach the stars with it.
« Last Edit: 01/16/2014 10:02 pm by Stormbringer »
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Quantum Gravitons Resemble a Doubled Gluon
« Reply #3 on: 01/16/2014 09:50 pm »
sorry for the second scatter shot reply but i think it sure is testable. but that goes into an area that may be considered too fringe smelling for the forums well being. but you could look for confirmation by mucking about with certain elongated nuclei elements such as bismuth where some allege that the strong force exchange field pokes out beyond the electronic limits of an atom.
« Last Edit: 01/16/2014 10:04 pm by Stormbringer »
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6306
  • Liked: 1485
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Quantum Gravitons Resemble a Doubled Gluon
« Reply #4 on: 01/16/2014 10:29 pm »
Hmm, well in that case, maybe some of these nucleonic isomers would also provide similarly useful possibilities for testing - or is that what you were referring to? I think I put up a post on Bismuth-212 some time back:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32318.0


Since nucleonic isomers offer up altered states of the strong force, and this new theory connects the strong force to gravity, then maybe this would be a good place to start looking. I'm not sure what the electronic shell has to do with things, since that's not really strong force, right?

I wonder if it might be possible to have nucleus which behaves anisotropically in a gravitational field - ie. the response of the nucleus to the gravitational field would depend on the orientation of the nucleus.

Offline R7

  • Propulsophile
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2725
    • Don't worry.. we can still be fans of OSC and SNC
  • Liked: 993
  • Likes Given: 668
Re: Quantum Gravitons Resemble a Doubled Gluon
« Reply #5 on: 01/16/2014 10:33 pm »
Does this double gluon thingie give any kind of green light to exotic space flight propulsion concepts?
AD·ASTRA·ASTRORVM·GRATIA

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Quantum Gravitons Resemble a Doubled Gluon
« Reply #6 on: 01/16/2014 10:49 pm »
Does this double gluon thingie give any kind of green light to exotic space flight propulsion concepts?

it does...  if a series of more ifs is also true. first the maths must describe real world physical reality. then the strong force must be accessible. then it must be subject to alignment amplification and so forth.

at least it makes it theoretically possible. that's a start.
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Quantum Gravitons Resemble a Doubled Gluon
« Reply #7 on: 01/16/2014 11:08 pm »
Hmm, well in that case, maybe some of these nucleonic isomers would also provide similarly useful possibilities for testing - or is that what you were referring to? I think I put up a post on Bismuth-212 some time back:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32318.0


Since nucleonic isomers offer up altered states of the strong force, and this new theory connects the strong force to gravity, then maybe this would be a good place to start looking. I'm not sure what the electronic shell has to do with things, since that's not really strong force, right?

I wonder if it might be possible to have nucleus which behaves anisotropically in a gravitational field - ie. the response of the nucleus to the gravitational field would depend on the orientation of the nucleus.
good find. i need to study the strong force interactions of nucleonic isomers as well as nucleons in the ground state. in the same way you can align the magnetic domains in iron to make a magnet you should be able to align the nuclei of diamagnetic materials such as bismuth. this way any weird effect would be at least somewhat more obvious to measurement.

i mentioned the electron shell only WRT to strong force needing to be accessible. the nucleonic shells are the real question. certain atoms like bismuth have an odd shape due to odd protons in the outer nucleonic shells. That is real science. there are spherical, pear shaped and american football/rugby ball shaped nuclei. i read an article on that just a few days ago.

in kook science this fact is taken to mean that the strong interaction field somehow pokes out past the nucleus in heavier nuclei that have an elongated shape. and i have read of some that say it protrudes past the electron orbitals though in reality that last bit probably isn't true and probably is not necessary.

When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0