Author Topic: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released  (Read 77188 times)

Offline QuantumG

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #40 on: 01/14/2014 11:52 pm »
NASA was doing all the work to ensure that all the elements were going to be ready including the lunar lander by the time the Ares V was ready. 

I was with you up to that point. There was never any funding for the lander. The study phase was producing nothing more than oversized fantasies like Altair.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline DarkenedOne

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #41 on: 01/15/2014 12:12 am »
That's a ridiculous comment.  If that is the way members on this forum wish to perceive reality then it is open-season on everything.  For example, commercial crew is a boondoggle into corporate welfare and subsidization of a market that does not exist.

Alright Go4TLI, without commercial crew how do you expect NASA to transport its astronauts up to the ISS? 

Fact of the matter is that sending your astronauts into space on modified versions of the commercial satellite launchers is the most cost effective way to put your astronauts into space.  That is the reason why the Russian space agency despite having a faction of the budget NASA does is able to maintain their access to LEO, while we have not been able to do so.  It is also the reason why the Chinese based their systems off of the Soyuz. 

Now if you are wondering if the ISS itself if a boondoggle  that is another story.

Online Chris Bergin

Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #42 on: 01/15/2014 01:22 am »
PS Release:

US Congress Rejects White House Cuts to Planetary Exploration…Again

PASADENA, CA (January 14, 2014) - The FY2014 Omnibus spending bill, now before the U.S. Congress, once again rejects cuts to NASA’s Planetary Science Division that were sought by the White House. The Planetary Society commends Congress for this action, and strongly encourages the White House to prioritize Planetary Science in its future budget requests commensurate with its strong public and legislative support. The Society supports the passage of this bill for its additional Planetary Science funding as well as its overall funding levels allocated for NASA.
 
Congress plans to allocate $1.345 billion for NASA’s Planetary Science Division, $127 million more than requested by the White House. We strongly support the increase, but note that the number is well below the program’s historical average of $1.5 billion per year.
 
“This is pretty good news,” said Planetary Society CEO Bill Nye, “$1.345 billion for planetary science is good. Nevertheless, Congress and tens of thousands of Planetary Society members will continue to make the case for $1.5 billion. It's for the potential science gain and it's especially for the innovations that will come forth as we solve problems that have never been solved before. Planetary exploration is what NASA does best. We will keep up the fight.”
 
The additional funding ensures the steady development of the next major mission to Mars in 2020, which will store samples of the red planet for eventual return to Earth. It also provides $80 million for continued research into a flagship-class mission to explore Europa, the enigmatic moon of Jupiter that was recently revealed to be spouting its liquid-water ocean into space.
 
“Exploring Europa is no longer a ‘should’ but a ‘must’,” said Casey Dreier, The Planetary Society’s Director of Advocacy, “Congress made a smart decision to continue studying the Europa Clipper mission concept. There is bipartisan support and strong public interest in exploring Europa, the mission is technically feasible, and it is high priority within the scientific community. The White House should embrace this bold search for life and request a new start for this mission in FY2015.”
 
The Society also supports the congressional recommendation that NASA increase the pace of small planetary missions. We are particularly happy to see full congressional and White House support for restarting the nation’s Plutonium-238 production capability, which provides electrical power for many planetary science missions that can’t utilize solar panels.
 
The White House has requested cuts to planetary science for two years in a row, and for two years in a row Congress has rejected them. In light of this and the more than 50,000 messages sent to Congress and President Obama in support of NASA’s planetary science program last year, we urge the Office of Management and Budget to recognize the unprecedented public and legislative support for solar system exploration, and propose $1.5 billion for this program in their FY2015 budget request.

Offline 93143

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #43 on: 01/15/2014 07:35 am »
I must confess that I too am a little surprised by Ross' comments.

SLS hasn't been bloating; it's been shrinking.  It's now roughly a J-140SH + DHCUS with better technology, which should result in lower recurring costs than a Jupiter even without "rightsizing" for the low expected flight rate.  There are only two proposed upgrades; one makes it a J-24xSH, and the other replaces the ATK solids with a better-performing option that has lower recurring costs and should pay for itself if SLS flies for long enough.  Internally, NASA seems to favour doing the upper stage first...

SLS hasn't been busting its budget or schedule; last I checked (which was admittedly not very recently) it had some months of slack in the schedule, and the estimated cumulative cost to IOC was going nowhere but down (it was roughly the same as DIRECT's estimate for the J-130).  This despite a highly suboptimal development budget profile...

While SLS is perhaps not the most efficient possible way to achieve its capability, it's certainly no Ares.
« Last Edit: 01/15/2014 08:00 am by 93143 »

Offline Kasponaut

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #44 on: 01/15/2014 08:04 am »
I must confess that I too am a little surprised by Ross' comments.

SLS hasn't been bloating; it's been shrinking.  It's now roughly a J-140SH + DHCUS with better technology, which should result in lower recurring costs than a Jupiter even without "rightsizing" for the low expected flight rate.  There are only two proposed upgrades; one makes it a J-24xSH, and the other replaces the ATK solids with a better-performing option that has lower recurring costs and should pay for itself if SLS flies for long enough.  Internally, NASA seems to favour doing the upper stage first...

SLS hasn't been busting its budget or schedule; last I checked (which was admittedly not very recently) it had some months of slack in the schedule, and the estimated cumulative cost to IOC was going nowhere but down (it was roughly the same as DIRECT's estimate for the J-130).  This despite a highly suboptimal development budget profile...

While SLS is perhaps not the most efficient possible way to achieve its capability, it's certainly no Ares.

Now that is a great reply - and one that I agree with 100%

Offline john smith 19

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #45 on: 01/15/2014 08:48 am »
That figure is the discretionary Federal budget. Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are not factored in. The oft-quoted 0.5% figure is for the total including so-called "Mandatory" spending (the above programs).
Ahh. The light dawns.  :)

But hold up a mo I though defense was also mandatory (pretty much hard wired into the list of "Things the American state has to do)?

And it's a biggie.  :(
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #46 on: 01/15/2014 08:58 am »
Congress doesn't need a cost/benefit analysis to show that SLS/Orion funnels a lot more money to their campaign contributors than commercial crew ever will.
If any of the CCiCAP concepts starts doing major launch business you can bet they will get calls suggesting they take a more "active" part in the democratic process  :)

Quote
Hah, you thought Congressional budget bills were about being wise stewards of taxpayer money, and picking the solution that benefits the country the most? The naivety is charming. NASA is the piggybank of a couple of Congresspeople who sit on the appropriate authorizing or appropriating committee.
Just a silly romantic notion I had. The two objectives seems so completely opposed to each other.  :(
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #47 on: 01/15/2014 09:00 am »
In fact, I'd probably be willing to shut up and ignore the waste if they didn't keep strangling almost everything else that I value at NASA (planetary science, non-JWST astrophysics, space technology development and tech demos, commercial crew, actual money to fund ISS utilization, etc).
You make it sound like a giant metal cuckoo  :(

Cuckoos don't just eat everything their adopted parents feed them.

They also throw other eggs out of the next, killing the competition before it has a chance.  :(

Which may be a bit harsh.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline 93143

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #48 on: 01/15/2014 09:05 am »
But hold up a mo I though defense was also mandatory (pretty much hard wired into the list of "Things the American state has to do)?

Yes, but they get to decide how much they spend on it.  "Mandatory" spending is other people asking the government to pay for stuff they said they'd pay for, so the amount's not up for debate.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #49 on: 01/15/2014 09:12 am »
Yes, but they get to decide how much they spend on it.  "Mandatory" spending is other people asking the government to pay for stuff they said they'd pay for, so the amount's not up for debate.
Ahh, another little oddity of "government English."  :)

I too recall the usual description of the NASA budget as (currently) being about 0.5% of Federal budget and I could not quite see how it had grown about 3.5x without anyone noticing.  :(
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline clongton

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #50 on: 01/15/2014 11:21 am »

SLS has become just another boondoggle just as bad as Ares-I + Ares-V ever was (and most people on the forum a few years back likely recall my opinions of that!).   Sadly, the current situation has occurred for much the same reason too; a few usual suspects in DC who want to plus-up the funding for a single project, with the returns heading for their own districts/regions.


SLS is ahead of schedule and under or on budget.  Those are facts.  You come across as arm-waving.  Good day.
Dismissing a highly respected member like Ross in the way you just did makes me wanna hit the Do-Not-Like button. Unfortunately, we don't have such a button.

I see that presenting facts is now called "disrespect" to someone who advocated on this forum for something not all that different.  Strange. 

You have got to be kidding me. Not all that different? Please! It was totally different. It was affordable, sustainable and left a sizable chunk of funding for actual exploration payloads. Constellation and SLS wreaked economic havoc on the lives of thousands of people and that would never have happened if NASA had listened to us. We never would have had to buy rides from the Russians. Orion would have been flying before STS-135 launched. All on a Shuttle-sized budget. Totally different. SLS looks like it, but is absolutely completely different in every respect that counts. And yes - disrespect is the correct term.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline notsorandom

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #51 on: 01/15/2014 01:11 pm »

SLS has become just another boondoggle just as bad as Ares-I + Ares-V ever was (and most people on the forum a few years back likely recall my opinions of that!).   Sadly, the current situation has occurred for much the same reason too; a few usual suspects in DC who want to plus-up the funding for a single project, with the returns heading for their own districts/regions.


SLS is ahead of schedule and under or on budget.  Those are facts.  You come across as arm-waving.  Good day.
Dismissing a highly respected member like Ross in the way you just did makes me wanna hit the Do-Not-Like button. Unfortunately, we don't have such a button.

I see that presenting facts is now called "disrespect" to someone who advocated on this forum for something not all that different.  Strange. 

You have got to be kidding me. Not all that different? Please! It was totally different. It was affordable, sustainable and left a sizable chunk of funding for actual exploration payloads. Constellation and SLS wreaked economic havoc on the lives of thousands of people and that would never have happened if NASA had listened to us. We never would have had to buy rides from the Russians. Orion would have been flying before STS-135 launched. All on a Shuttle-sized budget. Totally different. SLS looks like it, but is absolutely completely different in every respect that counts. And yes - disrespect is the correct term.
And with Orion flying before STS-135 there would have been no commercial crew. There may have been enough extra in the budget to do it but the political support would never materialize without the artificially created inability to launch crews to the ISS.

Offline Go4TLI

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #52 on: 01/15/2014 01:20 pm »

SLS has become just another boondoggle just as bad as Ares-I + Ares-V ever was (and most people on the forum a few years back likely recall my opinions of that!).   Sadly, the current situation has occurred for much the same reason too; a few usual suspects in DC who want to plus-up the funding for a single project, with the returns heading for their own districts/regions.


SLS is ahead of schedule and under or on budget.  Those are facts.  You come across as arm-waving.  Good day.
Dismissing a highly respected member like Ross in the way you just did makes me wanna hit the Do-Not-Like button. Unfortunately, we don't have such a button.

I see that presenting facts is now called "disrespect" to someone who advocated on this forum for something not all that different.  Strange. 

You have got to be kidding me. Not all that different? Please! It was totally different. It was affordable, sustainable and left a sizable chunk of funding for actual exploration payloads. Constellation and SLS wreaked economic havoc on the lives of thousands of people and that would never have happened if NASA had listened to us. We never would have had to buy rides from the Russians. Orion would have been flying before STS-135 launched. All on a Shuttle-sized budget. Totally different. SLS looks like it, but is absolutely completely different in every respect that counts. And yes - disrespect is the correct term.

That is another sad comment Chuck.  I "disrespect" you and Ross because I say SLS is on-time and on-budget?  Those are facts.  You are ranting by suggesting that if NASA and the govt had listened to "us", everything would be puppies and unicorns. 

Guess what, they didn't listen to you.  They didn't listen to me or any number of other, much more senior and important people.  Get over it.  Because the reality is that you have no idea, zero, how things would have turned out in reality if they did "listen to us". 

The fact that you are now so bitter that you have to rip on SLS and then say to anyone they are "disrespectful" to others for stating facts is disturbing on a number of levels. 
« Last Edit: 01/15/2014 02:02 pm by Go4TLI »

Offline Go4TLI

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #53 on: 01/15/2014 01:22 pm »
That's a ridiculous comment.  If that is the way members on this forum wish to perceive reality then it is open-season on everything.  For example, commercial crew is a boondoggle into corporate welfare and subsidization of a market that does not exist.

Alright Go4TLI, without commercial crew how do you expect NASA to transport its astronauts up to the ISS? 

Fact of the matter is that sending your astronauts into space on modified versions of the commercial satellite launchers is the most cost effective way to put your astronauts into space.  That is the reason why the Russian space agency despite having a faction of the budget NASA does is able to maintain their access to LEO, while we have not been able to do so.  It is also the reason why the Chinese based their systems off of the Soyuz. 

Now if you are wondering if the ISS itself if a boondoggle  that is another story.

I would try to answer this if it was an actual coherent question or made any true sense in reality. 

Offline yg1968

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #54 on: 01/15/2014 01:37 pm »
I must confess that I too am a little surprised by Ross' comments.

SLS hasn't been bloating; it's been shrinking.  It's now roughly a J-140SH + DHCUS with better technology, which should result in lower recurring costs than a Jupiter even without "rightsizing" for the low expected flight rate.  There are only two proposed upgrades; one makes it a J-24xSH, and the other replaces the ATK solids with a better-performing option that has lower recurring costs and should pay for itself if SLS flies for long enough.  Internally, NASA seems to favour doing the upper stage first...

SLS hasn't been busting its budget or schedule; last I checked (which was admittedly not very recently) it had some months of slack in the schedule, and the estimated cumulative cost to IOC was going nowhere but down (it was roughly the same as DIRECT's estimate for the J-130).  This despite a highly suboptimal development budget profile...

While SLS is perhaps not the most efficient possible way to achieve its capability, it's certainly no Ares.

I think that Ross' comments relates more to the timing of SLS. SLS was too late in getting started and thus did not ensure a smooth Shuttle-HLV transition. The whole idea of having a Shuttle derived HLV was to ensure a smooth transition between the two. In other words, SLS was too late to ensure this and therefore the whole idea of having a Shuttle derived HLV made less sense than it should have.

Offline Go4TLI

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #55 on: 01/15/2014 02:12 pm »
I must confess that I too am a little surprised by Ross' comments.

SLS hasn't been bloating; it's been shrinking.  It's now roughly a J-140SH + DHCUS with better technology, which should result in lower recurring costs than a Jupiter even without "rightsizing" for the low expected flight rate.  There are only two proposed upgrades; one makes it a J-24xSH, and the other replaces the ATK solids with a better-performing option that has lower recurring costs and should pay for itself if SLS flies for long enough.  Internally, NASA seems to favour doing the upper stage first...

SLS hasn't been busting its budget or schedule; last I checked (which was admittedly not very recently) it had some months of slack in the schedule, and the estimated cumulative cost to IOC was going nowhere but down (it was roughly the same as DIRECT's estimate for the J-130).  This despite a highly suboptimal development budget profile...

While SLS is perhaps not the most efficient possible way to achieve its capability, it's certainly no Ares.

I think that Ross' comments relates more to the timing of SLS. SLS was too late in getting started and thus did not ensure a smooth Shuttle-HLV transition. The whole idea of having a Shuttle derived HLV was to ensure a smooth transition between the two. In other words, SLS was too late to ensure this and therefore the whole idea of having a Shuttle derived HLV made less sense than it should have.

I disagree.  Of course the transition could have, and should have, been smoother.  That said, there would be changes in any route taken.  For example the shuttle avionics were a bit out-dated in some cases.  In shuttle it was easier because the avionics, to a large degree, were inside the orbiter and were returned and maintained at a depot level.  However, individual piece parts were hard to achieve due to industry evolving beyond that. 

So, in a world where those avionics are in a production environment, changes were necessary.  There would also be changes in materials and manufacturing processes.  These would be, and are, due to advances in the state of the art and/or cost or schedule efficiencies. 

Any shuttle-derived vehicle would never be just taking shuttle parts and sticking them into a mixed-up configuration.  But, it is true that shuttle-derived still offers a significant savings, given there is history in other aspects and it builds on experience hard won. 

For example, the 737 still has two wings.  The 737-Max is not exactly the same airplane as the first one that rolled off the line many years ago.  But that foundation is still alive and the experience with the plane has informed all future derivatives. 

Online Chris Bergin

Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #56 on: 01/15/2014 02:28 pm »
A reminder, I won't stand for uncivil posts. Make one, lose your entire post. Kick and scream all you want, but that's the rule.

I am taking into account there are some posts that are flippant at best on this thread. SLS is not Ares.

Offline yg1968

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #57 on: 01/15/2014 02:38 pm »
Here is a useful chart that compares the FY 2014 bill to what was requested by the President, the Senate and  the House:
http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/01/14/omnibus-bill-gives-nasa-17-65-billion-and-launch-indemnification-extension-as-well/

Offline Mark S

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #58 on: 01/15/2014 03:23 pm »
Here is a useful chart that compares the FY 2014 bill to what was requested by the President, the Senate and  the House:
http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/01/14/omnibus-bill-gives-nasa-17-65-billion-and-launch-indemnification-extension-as-well/

Very nice chart. Does anyone have any information about what questionable diversions of SLS development funds, real or perceived, were made in the past to require this mandate in the bill?:

Quote
Due to continuing concerns regarding the diversion of funding intended for vehicle development to activities with only tangential relevance to SLS, NASA shall not use SLS funds for engineering or other activities that are not directly related to SLS vehicle development.

Thanks.

Offline clongton

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #59 on: 01/15/2014 04:02 pm »
Here is a useful chart that compares the FY 2014 bill to what was requested by the President, the Senate and  the House:
http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/01/14/omnibus-bill-gives-nasa-17-65-billion-and-launch-indemnification-extension-as-well/

Interesting chart - thanks. I can't help but notice that, with a few exceptions, the House reduced the Administration's request by a pretty significant amount while the Senate generally reduced the request by a much smaller amount. In the end the House had to come back up to Senate territory leaving the Omnibus bill pretty close to the Administration's original request.

It was no surprise to see the Senate with strong support for the SLS/Orion, given the names on the committees, but it was really surprising to me, even knowing the temperament of the Tea Party House members, to see the House slash Commercial Spaceflight from $821 to $500 million. That would have gutted Commercial Crew. I expected to see the House provide similar support to Commercial Crew as the Senate provided for SLS/Orion. Thank god the Omnibus bill pulled it back up; not as high as I would have liked ($696m), but one hell of a lot better than the paltry amount the House was willing to spend ($500m). Shame on them.
 
I agree that it "appears" as if the bill is aimed at going directly to SLS Block-2 with its requirement of "not less than 130 metric tons". It will be interesting to see what response, if any, Congress has to flying the 70 mt Block-1 vehicle that NASA wants to launch in a couple years. At current spending levels, it will be difficult to put payloads on the Block-1 vehicle, let alone the Block-2. It's for sure that there is very little funding for payloads that could justify that monster, especially given the House attitude evidenced by the chart. They don't seem to be especially interested in NASA. Their interest appears to me to begin and end with reducing the budget by large chunks, almost without regard to what programs or agencies get gutted. It reminds me of surgery using an axe instead of a scalpel.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

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