Author Topic: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released  (Read 77193 times)

Offline yg1968

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FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« on: 01/14/2014 01:02 am »
Here is a copy of the CJS Appropriation bill (NASA starts at page 158 of the bill):
http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20140113/CPRT-113-HPRT-RU00-h3547-hamdt2samdt_xml.pdf

Here is a copy of the explanatory statement (NASA starts at page 112 of the PDF):
http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20140113/113-HR3547-JSOM-FM-B.pdf

$696M for commercial report but $171M is conditional on NASA obtaining an (unredacted) independant cost-benefit report for commercial crew. See pages 161-162 of the bill. See also pages 116-117 of the PDF of the report.

Quote
24 (...) Provided further, That
25 $696,000,000 shall be for commercial spaceflight activi-
1 ties, of which $171,000,000 shall be made available after
2 the Administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space
3 Administration has certified that the commercial crew pro
4 gram has undergone an independent benefit-cost analysis
5 that takes into consideration the total Federal investment
6 in the commercial crew program and the expected oper
7 ational life of the International Space Station as described
8 in the explanatory statement described in section 4 (in the
9 matter preceding division A of this consolidated Act):
« Last Edit: 01/15/2014 03:08 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #1 on: 01/14/2014 01:08 am »
NASA is funded at $17.6B:
http://appropriations.house.gov/uploadedfiles/01.13.14_fy_2014_omnibus_-_commerce_justice_science_-_summary.pdf
 
Quote
National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) NASA is funded at $17.6 billion
in the bill, an increase of $120 million above the fiscal year 2013 enacted level. Within this total,
$4.1 billion is provided for Exploration, including funding to keep NASA on schedule for
upcoming Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle and Space Launch System flight program milestones.

Offline yg1968

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #2 on: 01/14/2014 01:14 am »
SLS gets $1.9B and Orion gets $1.2B, See page 161 of the bill:

Quote
10 (...) Provided, That not less
11 than $1,197,000,000 shall be for the Orion Multi-Purpose
12 Crew Vehicle: Provided further, That not less than
13 $1,918,200,000 shall be for the Space Launch System,
14 which shall have a lift capability not less than 130 metric
15 tons and which shall have an upper stage and other core
16 elements developed simultaneously: Provided further, That
17 of the funds made available for the Space Launch System,
18 $1,600,000,000 shall be for launch vehicle development
19 and $318,200,000 shall be for exploration ground sys-
20 tems:
« Last Edit: 01/14/2014 06:34 am by yg1968 »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #3 on: 01/14/2014 04:15 am »
Quoting from page 161:

"That not less than $1,918,200,000 shall be for the Space Launch System, which shall have a lift capability not less than 130 metric tons and which shall have an upper stage and other core elements developed simultaneously"

Well, NASA won't be able to get 130 t with a core with four RS-25 engines and solid boosters, new liquid boosters are required (which is two major projects, one for a new booster structure and one for a new liquid engine).

There are other solutions that get 130 t, but they require a new core. For a new core with five engines, new solid boosters are required (which again is two major projects, one for the new boosters and one for the new core).  For a new core with six engines no new boosters are required (this only requires one major project for the new core).
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online john smith 19

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #4 on: 01/14/2014 11:59 am »
Here is a copy of the CJS Appropriation bill (NASA starts at page 158 of the bill):
http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20140113/CPRT-113-HPRT-RU00-h3547-hamdt2samdt_xml.pdf
The CCiCAP stuff is mostly on pg 162. I wonder if this will take into account the ISS life extension to 2024?
I think it should.
Quote
Here is a copy of the report (NASA starts at page 112 of the PDF):
http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20140113/113-HR3547-JSOM-FM-B.pdf

$696M for commercial report but $171M is conditional on NASA obtaining an (unredacted) independant cost-benefit report for commercial crew. See pages 161-162 of the bill. See also pages 116-117 of the PDF of the report.
That should be interesting. In a spirit of fairness I'd like to see the equivalent for SLS/Orion.  :(

And what's with this sudden dash for 130 tonnes and complete development on the J-2X? Surely their best chance would be to go with the RS25D/E's for high performance?



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Online john smith 19

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #5 on: 01/14/2014 12:03 pm »
Well, NASA won't be able to get 130 t with a core with four RS-25 engines and solid boosters, new liquid boosters are required (which is two major projects, one for a new booster structure and one for a new liquid engine).
core).
My obvious thought would be the engine from the Atlas V. LOX/RP1. Development already done.

Of course bad news Utah.  :(
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline simpl simon

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #6 on: 01/14/2014 12:51 pm »
The total value of the FY2014 Omnibus Bill is $1.012 trillion. If that figure is the Federal Budget, then NASA's budget of $17.646 billion is about 1.74%.
The human spaceflight budget I assume comprises Exploration Systems + Space Operations (at least a major part of Space Ops is for ISS Ops). So the FY2014 human spaceflight budget is ($4.113 billion + $3.778 billion), say $7.891 billion, equivalent to about 0.78% of the Federal Budget.

These figures seem to be higher than the figures currently used (1% and 0.5% respectively).

Corrected typo: NASA's budget is $17.646 billion.
« Last Edit: 01/14/2014 12:53 pm by simpl simon »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #7 on: 01/14/2014 01:29 pm »
Quoting from page 161:

"That not less than $1,918,200,000 shall be for the Space Launch System, which shall have a lift capability not less than 130 metric tons and which shall have an upper stage and other core elements developed simultaneously"

(Many thanks to Yves for the salient reporting)

Quote from: Simple Simon
The total value of the FY2014 Omnibus Bill is $1.012 trillion. If that figure is the Federal Budget, then NASA's budget of $17.646 billion is about 1.74%.

NASA doesn't even get the two cents that we get here on this forum! 

At least this legislation is modestly more honest regarding the throw weight of SLS as being "not less than" 130 tonnes.  The previous legislation pretended to what I thought was a reasonable effort to grow the launch vehicle from 70 to 130 tons (or tonnes).

Now, the sky truly is the limit on the throw weight, since that is the legal meaning of "not less than". 
Worse, no budgeted or prioritized missions for this LV.  How do they ever expect to get to Mars?  Can anybody here report briefly on the SLS current  schedule?  Are they meeting their milestones?  Are they on budget?

There's my two cents.

PS:  I like the like button!
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline jongoff

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #8 on: 01/14/2014 02:09 pm »
That should be interesting. In a spirit of fairness I'd like to see the equivalent for SLS/Orion.  :(

Congress doesn't need a cost/benefit analysis to show that SLS/Orion funnels a lot more money to their campaign contributors than commercial crew ever will.

Quote
And what's with this sudden dash for 130 tonnes and complete development on the J-2X? Surely their best chance would be to go with the RS25D/E's for high performance?

Hah, you thought Congressional budget bills were about being wise stewards of taxpayer money, and picking the solution that benefits the country the most? The naivety is charming. NASA is the piggybank of a couple of Congresspeople who sit on the appropriate authorizing or appropriating committee.

~Jon

Offline strangequark

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #9 on: 01/14/2014 02:29 pm »
The total value of the FY2014 Omnibus Bill is $1.012 trillion. If that figure is the Federal Budget, then NASA's budget of $17.646 billion is about 1.74%.
The human spaceflight budget I assume comprises Exploration Systems + Space Operations (at least a major part of Space Ops is for ISS Ops). So the FY2014 human spaceflight budget is ($4.113 billion + $3.778 billion), say $7.891 billion, equivalent to about 0.78% of the Federal Budget.

These figures seem to be higher than the figures currently used (1% and 0.5% respectively).

Corrected typo: NASA's budget is $17.646 billion.

That figure is the discretionary Federal budget. Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are not factored in. The oft-quoted 0.5% figure is for the total including so-called "Mandatory" spending (the above programs).

Offline M129K

Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #10 on: 01/14/2014 02:46 pm »
Quoting from page 161:

"That not less than $1,918,200,000 shall be for the Space Launch System, which shall have a lift capability not less than 130 metric tons and which shall have an upper stage and other core elements developed simultaneously"

Well, NASA won't be able to get 130 t with a core with four RS-25 engines and solid boosters, new liquid boosters are required (which is two major projects, one for a new booster structure and one for a new liquid engine).

There are other solutions that get 130 t, but they require a new core. For a new core with five engines, new solid boosters are required (which again is two major projects, one for the new boosters and one for the new core).  For a new core with six engines no new boosters are required (this only requires one major project for the new core).

From the other document yg1968 posted:

Quote from: Congress
The agreement provides $1,600,000,000 under the "Exploration" heading to maintain critical forward momentum for the core development o f SLS and, where practicable, components that will allow SLS to become a 130 metric ton vehicle, including the J2-X engine, upper stage, advanced boosters and SLS-related infrastructure.


The plan doesn't really appear to have changed, but they seem to know that advanced boosters are necessary with the current SLS core.

Offline Robotbeat

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Offline Go4TLI

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #12 on: 01/14/2014 04:35 pm »
That should be interesting. In a spirit of fairness I'd like to see the equivalent for SLS/Orion.  :(

Congress doesn't need a cost/benefit analysis to show that SLS/Orion funnels a lot more money to their campaign contributors than commercial crew ever will.

Quote
And what's with this sudden dash for 130 tonnes and complete development on the J-2X? Surely their best chance would be to go with the RS25D/E's for high performance?

Hah, you thought Congressional budget bills were about being wise stewards of taxpayer money, and picking the solution that benefits the country the most? The naivety is charming. NASA is the piggybank of a couple of Congresspeople who sit on the appropriate authorizing or appropriating committee.

~Jon

This kind of snarkiness is immensely counterproductive. 

SLS/Orion and CRS are completely different programs with completely different objectives and completely different contracting mechanisms. 

CRS is government money toward a systems or systems that will not be owned or controlled by the govt and the govt then has to pay to use.

Orion/SLS have always been govt-owned systems. 

Frankly, I don't see the big deal and frankly the CCDev/CCiCAP money is NASA money well spent.  And I'm sure a cost/benefit analysis will prove that. 

People have to try to keep perspective without immediately trying to go to the lowest common denominator.

Offline kraisee

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #13 on: 01/14/2014 05:24 pm »
Hah, you thought Congressional budget bills were about being wise stewards of taxpayer money, and picking the solution that benefits the country the most?

This kind of snarkiness is immensely counterproductive.

True, but that doesn't mean Jon's point is actually wrong.

The agency is driven entirely by politics these days and it -- and its various programs -- are in shockingly poor shape because of it.

I'll caveat that by saying that there are plenty of really good people working within the agency and the contractor network still, but the politics and bureaucracy have a thoroughly suffocating effect on most of their good works.

Don't underestimate how bad things really are in this regard, because it would be seriously difficult to design a strategy intended to produce worse results than we're getting today.

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Offline Go4TLI

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #14 on: 01/14/2014 05:31 pm »
Hah, you thought Congressional budget bills were about being wise stewards of taxpayer money, and picking the solution that benefits the country the most?

This kind of snarkiness is immensely counterproductive.

True, but that doesn't mean Jon's point is actually wrong.

I completely disagree.  Jon's entire argument is that the current path and program provides "no benefit" to the country.  That is his opinion, paraded as undeniable fact with the only way to prove it being having knowledge of some alternate universe where his preferred method is the path forward. 

This goes further to ignore the likelihood that politics would not enter his preferred solution with the same/different politicians arguing and fighting for that particular piece of the pie. 

Nobody has said that the current way of things is some utopia. 
« Last Edit: 01/14/2014 05:42 pm by Go4TLI »

Offline Prober

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #15 on: 01/14/2014 05:55 pm »
Quoting from page 161:

"That not less than $1,918,200,000 shall be for the Space Launch System, which shall have a lift capability not less than 130 metric tons and which shall have an upper stage and other core elements developed simultaneously"

(Many thanks to Yves for the salient reporting)

Quote from: Simple Simon
The total value of the FY2014 Omnibus Bill is $1.012 trillion. If that figure is the Federal Budget, then NASA's budget of $17.646 billion is about 1.74%.

NASA doesn't even get the two cents that we get here on this forum! 

At least this legislation is modestly more honest regarding the throw weight of SLS as being "not less than" 130 tonnes.  The previous legislation pretended to what I thought was a reasonable effort to grow the launch vehicle from 70 to 130 tons (or tonnes).

Now, the sky truly is the limit on the throw weight, since that is the legal meaning of "not less than". 
Worse, no budgeted or prioritized missions for this LV.  How do they ever expect to get to Mars?  Can anybody here report briefly on the SLS current  schedule?  Are they meeting their milestones?  Are they on budget?

There's my two cents.

PS:  I like the like button!

How do you read this?     I'm reading this as ....let's get directly to Block II.
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Offline rcoppola

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #16 on: 01/14/2014 06:03 pm »
Quoting from page 161:

"That not less than $1,918,200,000 shall be for the Space Launch System, which shall have a lift capability not less than 130 metric tons and which shall have an upper stage and other core elements developed simultaneously"

(Many thanks to Yves for the salient reporting)

Quote from: Simple Simon
The total value of the FY2014 Omnibus Bill is $1.012 trillion. If that figure is the Federal Budget, then NASA's budget of $17.646 billion is about 1.74%.

NASA doesn't even get the two cents that we get here on this forum! 

At least this legislation is modestly more honest regarding the throw weight of SLS as being "not less than" 130 tonnes.  The previous legislation pretended to what I thought was a reasonable effort to grow the launch vehicle from 70 to 130 tons (or tonnes).

Now, the sky truly is the limit on the throw weight, since that is the legal meaning of "not less than". 
Worse, no budgeted or prioritized missions for this LV.  How do they ever expect to get to Mars?  Can anybody here report briefly on the SLS current  schedule?  Are they meeting their milestones?  Are they on budget?

There's my two cents.

PS:  I like the like button!

How do you read this?     I'm reading this as ....let's get directly to Block II.
Yes, I read it the same way. Which begs the question if they will just do what SpaceX is doing with regards to utilizing the same basic materials and tooling to efficiently create both 1st and second stage. Chris just released an article on MAF and all the tooling seem to be either in place or being put in place. So why not just direct MAF to tool the 1st and 2nd stage simultaneously. (Understanding they will need to decide on 2nd stage engine config sooner then perhaps they thought) Do we really need another vendor, another center involved?
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Offline kraisee

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #17 on: 01/14/2014 06:08 pm »
I completely disagree.  Jon's entire argument is that the current path and program provides "no benefit" to the country.  That is his opinion, paraded as undeniable fact with the only way to prove it being having knowledge of some alternate universe where his preferred method is the path forward. 

This goes further to ignore the likelihood that politics would not enter his preferred solution with the same/different politicians arguing and fighting for that particular piece of the pie. 

Nobody has said that the current way of things is some utopia. 

Sorry, but I didn't see where did Jon mention his preferred solution?

The post above doesn't seem to have any mention of an alternative, it is merely criticizing the current plans due to the political motivations behind them.   In that regard I have no doubts that he is dead-on-the-money.   I can't speak to Jon's alternatives, because he didn't mention them here.


SLS has become just another boondoggle just as bad as Ares-I + Ares-V ever was (and most people on the forum a few years back likely recall my opinions of that!) -- continually growing in scope, schedule and most importantly; cost.   Any way you cut it, this can't be considered to be a good situation because it is ending-up doing precisely the same this as Ares:   It is squeezing the rest of the agency's budget to the point where things are having to be shelved.

The situation ultimately boils down to this:   As long as we have this insanely-large SLS configuration acting as a money-pit, NASA isn't going to have the spare resources pay for anything else, such as human landers to go anywhere exciting, let alone any sort of base/colony hardware.   The 130 tonne SLS is sucking the air out of the room and will continue to do so until either NASA gets a big budget increase (yeah, I don't believe that either), or SLS's budget is reduced somehow.

Sadly, the current situation has come-about for much the same reason as Ares; a few usual suspects in DC who want to plus-up the funding for one (and 'alf) project, with the returns heading for their own districts/regions.

This shouldn't be surprising to anyone because it is the *JOB* of every elected official to improve the lot of the people who elect them.   These guys & gals are doing precisely what they are elected to do.   Unfortunately, it is having less-than-desirable consequences on the agency and its programs, that go far beyond the borders of their particular states.

The sad thing is they could have still had their money and we (the greater space community & the US tax payer in general) could have gotten a lot more bangs for the bucks too, there are a wide range of alternatives they could have employed to get better results than we have today.   You can pick your own personal poison, but almost all of them require less budget allocation in the first place, freeing up monies to be used for additional projects -- and that is where SLS's high budget allocation of $1.9 billion this year alone, is hurting.

But unfortunately the reason we are following this particular path is ultimately because their ears have been stuffed with cotton wool for roughly a decade on this issue and they simply won't listen to *ANY* alternatives.   I personally know this to be true, because I was one of the most vocal people trying to tell them in their own offices -- repeatedly -- and I still have the scars to prove it! :)

Ross.
« Last Edit: 01/14/2014 06:31 pm by kraisee »
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Offline Go4TLI

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #18 on: 01/14/2014 06:14 pm »

SLS has become just another boondoggle just as bad as Ares-I + Ares-V ever was (and most people on the forum a few years back likely recall my opinions of that!).   Sadly, the current situation has occurred for much the same reason too; a few usual suspects in DC who want to plus-up the funding for a single project, with the returns heading for their own districts/regions.


SLS is ahead of schedule and under or on budget.  Those are facts.  You come across as arm-waving.  Good day.

Offline DDG40

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Re: FY 2014 Appropriation bill is released
« Reply #19 on: 01/14/2014 06:55 pm »
Per Charlie Bolden, as of yesterday SLS is on schedule and on budget.

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