Author Topic: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions  (Read 51520 times)

Online oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #60 on: 01/11/2014 06:23 PM »
Isn't ITAR going to be a problem for Europeans? For instance if they want to refurbish the craft themselves between launches?

I am not an expert on ITAR but I don't think that SNC would sell a DC to ESA. They would rent it and SNC (or one of their U.S. subcontractors) would operate it. I believe that there are efforts to remove spacecrafts from ITAR. But that has yet to be done.

Well it would seem to go against the ESA "buy european" policy then. I was thinking DLR might buy a DC on its own funds (no political problems with ESA in this case) and then ESA could operate it with european industries doing the maintenance/refurbishment. But it is too early to tell anyway.

DLR is not ESA.

Offline floss

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #61 on: 01/11/2014 11:45 PM »
Dreamchaser can be launched to GTO by Ariane 5 wonder what missions it could do in GEO rendezvous with a Bigalow station maby?

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #62 on: 01/11/2014 11:49 PM »
Dreamchaser can be launched to GTO by Ariane 5 wonder what missions it could do in GEO rendezvous with a Bigalow station maby?

Ariane 5 could potentially launch DC into a GTO - But DC would not have enough propellant to circularize the orbit, and would not be able to de-orbit from GEO either.
« Last Edit: 01/11/2014 11:51 PM by Lars_J »

Offline rpapo

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #63 on: 01/11/2014 11:54 PM »
Dreamchaser can be launched to GTO by Ariane 5 wonder what missions it could do in GEO rendezvous with a Bigalow station maby?

Ariane 5 could potentially launch DC into a GTO - But DC would not have enough propellant to circularize the orbit, and would not be able to de-orbit from GEO either.
And then there's the radiation belts to deal with.
An Apollo fanboy . . . fifty years ago.

Offline floss

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #64 on: 01/12/2014 12:14 AM »
Dreamchaser can be launched to GTO by Ariane 5 wonder what missions it could do in GEO rendezvous with a Bigalow station maby?

Ariane 5 could potentially launch DC into a GTO - But DC would not have enough propellant to circularize the orbit, and would not be able to de-orbit from GEO either.
And then there's the radiation belts to deal with.


Yup but it would have a very capable upper stage behind it with a half ton extra fuel (Ariane 5 ME) opens possibility's  .Imagine a rotating Bigalow station with an arm and an a Excaliber station with a rotating arm to lower it gently to the moons surface .Talk about dreaming ).
 

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #65 on: 01/12/2014 01:26 AM »
Dreamchaser can be launched to GTO by Ariane 5 wonder what missions it could do in GEO rendezvous with a Bigalow station maby?

If a spacecraft can be launched to GTO it can presumably be launched to EML-1 Transfer Orbit.

The extra propellant, radiation hardening and enhanced heat shield needed suggest a variant of the Dream Chaser would be used for EML-1 trips.

edit : spelling
« Last Edit: 01/12/2014 05:53 AM by A_M_Swallow »

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #66 on: 01/12/2014 05:11 AM »
Dreamchaser can be launched to GTO by Ariane 5 wonder what missions it could do in GEO rendezvous with a Bigalow station maby?

If a spacecraft can be launched to GTO it can presumably be launched to EML-1 Transfer Orbit.

The extra propellant, radiation hardening and enhanced hear shield suggest a variant of the Dream Chaser would be used for EML-1 trips.

Indeed. There is very little practical reason to put a space station at GEO. EML-1 is easier to reach and depart from, and would be a great stopping point towards moon, mars, and asteroid missions.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #67 on: 01/12/2014 07:04 AM »
Can Dream Chaser reenter from EML-1? That would be harsh on the wings.


Online MikeAtkinson

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #68 on: 01/12/2014 07:24 AM »
Ariane 6 would not be able to lift DC to GEO or L1/L2 and it is not going to be man-rated either.

If things go to plan Ariane 5 should be phased out starting in 2021. Not much time before that for interesting DC missions.

Offline Star One

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #69 on: 01/12/2014 08:36 AM »

Ariane 6 would not be able to lift DC to GEO or L1/L2 and it is not going to be man-rated either.

If things go to plan Ariane 5 should be phased out starting in 2021. Not much time before that for interesting DC missions.

I would not assume anything that you have listed here as being set in concrete, more likely is all of the above can change.

Offline M129K

Ariane 6 would not be able to lift DC to GEO or L1/L2 and it is not going to be man-rated either.

If things go to plan Ariane 5 should be phased out starting in 2021. Not much time before that for interesting DC missions.

Ariane 5 won't be phased out before 2025.

Offline Star One

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #71 on: 01/12/2014 09:30 AM »

Ariane 6 would not be able to lift DC to GEO or L1/L2 and it is not going to be man-rated either.

If things go to plan Ariane 5 should be phased out starting in 2021. Not much time before that for interesting DC missions.

Ariane 5 won't be phased out before 2025.

If then. The 2021 date could not be correct being as JUICE for a start is launching in 2022 on an Ariane 5.

Online gosnold

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #72 on: 01/12/2014 09:51 AM »
Isn't ITAR going to be a problem for Europeans? For instance if they want to refurbish the craft themselves between launches?

I am not an expert on ITAR but I don't think that SNC would sell a DC to ESA. They would rent it and SNC (or one of their U.S. subcontractors) would operate it. I believe that there are efforts to remove spacecrafts from ITAR. But that has yet to be done.

Well it would seem to go against the ESA "buy european" policy then. I was thinking DLR might buy a DC on its own funds (no political problems with ESA in this case) and then ESA could operate it with european industries doing the maintenance/refurbishment. But it is too early to tell anyway.

DLR is not ESA.

That's precisely my point. DLR wants to protect HSF and Ariane 5, and ESA using a DC would further that goal.

Offline Jcc

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #73 on: 01/12/2014 02:18 PM »
Could a separate propulsion module be adapted to DC? Such as the ATV SM is being adapted to Orion?
That would be more European tech content.

Offline M129K

Could a separate propulsion module be adapted to DC? Such as the ATV SM is being adapted to Orion?
That would be more European tech content.
A propulsion module, as in a small rocket stage? Sure. The SM is very different from that, however, as it provides life support and power as well as propulsion.

Offline Jim

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #75 on: 01/12/2014 02:41 PM »
Could a separate propulsion module be adapted to DC? Such as the ATV SM is being adapted to Orion?
That would be more European tech content.
A propulsion module, as in a small rocket stage? Sure. The SM is very different from that, however, as it provides life support and power as well as propulsion.

People doing that Lego thing again.

Online MikeAtkinson

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #76 on: 01/12/2014 02:42 PM »
Ariane 6 would not be able to lift DC to GEO or L1/L2 and it is not going to be man-rated either.

If things go to plan Ariane 5 should be phased out starting in 2021. Not much time before that for interesting DC missions.

Ariane 5 won't be phased out before 2025.

Starting to be phased out is not the same as no more flights. Delta II started to be phased out in 2007, but there are sill 4 (?) launches left. The point is irrelevant of the exact date of the last Ariane 5. Europe cannot afford to overlap flights of 5 & 6 for more than a few years.

DC missions, other than unmanned to LEO, do not seem possible with Ariane 6.

Obviously, plans may change, Ariane 6 may be redesigned, Ariane 5 may not be discontinued.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #77 on: 01/12/2014 02:49 PM »
Could a separate propulsion module be adapted to DC? Such as the ATV SM is being adapted to Orion?
That would be more European tech content.

According to Wiki LEO to EML-1 is a delta-v of about 3.77 km/s.  Since the current Dream Chaser can only re-enter from LEO the propulsion module's propellant tanks would probably have to be sized for a delta-v of 7.54 km/s.  The Dream Chaser has a mass of about 11,340 kg.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #78 on: 01/12/2014 03:05 PM »
Ariane 5 FAQ  :)
Payload to LEO: 22 tons, or a couple of Dream Chasers.
Payload to GTO, 2.5 km/s: 10 tons (current variant) 12 tons (ME with Vinci) no use for DC
Payload to Earth escape, 3.1 km/s : 5 - 6 tons at best.
Core diameter: 5.2 m.
Fairing diameter: never seen any hammerhead, so presumably same diameter as the core, so that's 5.2 m too.
Dreamchaser wingspan: 7 meters, much too wide to go inside a standard fairing.

Hermes was indeed twice as heavy as DC; but it used 80's technologies and, much more importantly, it had much larger capacities. The difference between DC and Hermes is kind of difference between Orion and CST-100.
« Last Edit: 01/12/2014 04:33 PM by Archibald »
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Offline Jcc

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Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #79 on: 01/12/2014 04:43 PM »
Could a separate propulsion module be adapted to DC? Such as the ATV SM is being adapted to Orion?
That would be more European tech content.
A propulsion module, as in a small rocket stage? Sure. The SM is very different from that, however, as it provides life support and power as well as propulsion.

People doing that Lego thing again.

You have something against LEGOs?
OK, I get it, if DC has not been designed to use an add-on propulsion unit, there can be a lot of issues trying to add one, then, what is the use case? It's just that extended uses beyond transport to ISS are being discussed, so it's pertinent.

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