Introducing Firefly Space Systems

[meekGee]

Well now we know what to do with the thread...  Just rename the title, and steady as she goes!

It works for NASA.

I didn't see this one coming.

[meekGee]

Something doesn't add up here.  It looks like some kind of maneuver to get the assets out from the clutches of Virgin Galactic on the cheap.  But that would be illegal, and VG would certainly fight it.  Unless they're just waiting for the right time -- let the transaction go through, then sue everyone involved for even more money.

Or, there's more going on here.  Maybe there's a deal with VG to sell off the assets at this price.  Maybe VG has a stake in the new company.  Who knows.

One way or another, I don't think VG is going to get the short end of this without a fight.

Would have been cool to have gone down there to hang out and pick up some gossip.

Didn't think of it in time.

[ringsider]

Something doesn't add up here.  It looks like some kind of maneuver to get the assets out from the clutches of Virgin Galactic on the cheap.  But that would be illegal, and VG would certainly fight it.  Unless they're just waiting for the right time -- let the transaction go through, then sue everyone involved for even more money.

Or, there's more going on here.  Maybe there's a deal with VG to sell off the assets at this price.  Maybe VG has a stake in the new company.  Who knows.

One way or another, I don't think VG is going to get the short end of this without a fight.

Would have been cool to have gone down there to hang out and pick up some gossip.

Didn't think of it in time.

Auction is tomorrow...

[meekGee]

Something doesn't add up here.  It looks like some kind of maneuver to get the assets out from the clutches of Virgin Galactic on the cheap.  But that would be illegal, and VG would certainly fight it.  Unless they're just waiting for the right time -- let the transaction go through, then sue everyone involved for even more money.

Or, there's more going on here.  Maybe there's a deal with VG to sell off the assets at this price.  Maybe VG has a stake in the new company.  Who knows.

One way or another, I don't think VG is going to get the short end of this without a fight.

Would have been cool to have gone down there to hang out and pick up some gossip.

Didn't think of it in time.

Auction is tomorrow...

I thought it just passed.  Menlo Park, yes?

[ringsider]

Something doesn't add up here.  It looks like some kind of maneuver to get the assets out from the clutches of Virgin Galactic on the cheap.  But that would be illegal, and VG would certainly fight it.  Unless they're just waiting for the right time -- let the transaction go through, then sue everyone involved for even more money.

Or, there's more going on here.  Maybe there's a deal with VG to sell off the assets at this price.  Maybe VG has a stake in the new company.  Who knows.

One way or another, I don't think VG is going to get the short end of this without a fight.

Would have been cool to have gone down there to hang out and pick up some gossip.

Didn't think of it in time.

Auction is tomorrow...

I thought it just passed.  Menlo Park, yes?

Yes. Address is above. You don't need to desposit 100k to show up, just to bid, so keep your hands in your pockets!

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Something doesn't add up here.  It looks like some kind of maneuver to get the assets out from the clutches of Virgin Galactic on the cheap.  But that would be illegal, and VG would certainly fight it.

I don't know how the law works in these parts - are all creditors treated equally or is there some sort of pecking order where certain creditors get priority over others? For example, in the U.K. I believe employees still owed wages get preference over some other creditors.

However, I agree that it's more likely there's some deal here with VG. Surely it's obvious to everyone that they wouldn't just standby and ignore what they're owed?

[ringsider]

Something doesn't add up here.  It looks like some kind of maneuver to get the assets out from the clutches of Virgin Galactic on the cheap.  But that would be illegal, and VG would certainly fight it.

I don't know how the law works in these parts - are all creditors treated equally or is there some sort of pecking order where certain creditors get priority over others? For example, in the U.K. I believe employees still owed wages get preference over some other creditors.

However, I agree that it's more likely there's some deal here with VG. Surely it's obvious to everyone that they wouldn't just standby and ignore what they're owed?

Well that is an interesting point. What are they owed? Has there been a judgement settling damages? They have an arbitration against Markusic personally from his employment and are suing other Firefly founders for damages but as far as I am aware there hasn't been a settlement or judgement. They did go to arbitration in the latter suit but nothing has come out yet.

And there is usually a debt/equity pecking order, secured senior debt being first in line. This matter is the secured senior debt holder calling his collateralized loan.

Maybe, just maybe, it is a way to circumvent any claim on Firefly? This auction shells the company - VG would win a phyrrhic victory, and the loan owner (who is not being sued as far as I can see) gets the assets at a knock down price to start again.

The loan date is really the key bit of data: 20 October 2016. At that point they had basically shut down. News articles came out on October 3. And a couple of weeks later that note gets signed. That date looks like somebody had a clever idea.

[TrevorMonty]

VG is suing for IP not assets. As long as the assets are not engines, VG doesn't need to be involved.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

VG is suing for IP not assets. As long as the assets are not engines, VG doesn't need to be involved.

But they were claiming substantial damages. I take the point that no such damages have been awarded/agreed yet (I wrongly thought they had). So either this auction is a way to get the assets legally transferred and cut VG out or there is some sort of agreement. I'm now thinking the former.

[john smith 19]

Something doesn't add up here.  It looks like some kind of maneuver to get the assets out from the clutches of Virgin Galactic on the cheap.  But that would be illegal, and VG would certainly fight it.  Unless they're just waiting for the right time -- let the transaction go through, then sue everyone involved for even more money.

That sounds about right. The short notice (days, not weeks), the $100K buy in at least 24 hrs ahead (given only a few days notice).  Looks like an attempt to rig the deal so he's the only viable bidder.

BTW Intellectual Property is an asset of a company so if Makusic assigned or transferred anything to Firefly then presumably VG would still have a claim on it.

Or, there's more going on here.  Maybe there's a deal with VG to sell off the assets at this price.  Maybe VG has a stake in the new company.  Who knows.

One way or another, I don't think VG is going to get the short end of this without a fight.

No. I don't think this has escaped VG's notice. If the auction is not held up it's likely VG either have a stake in the new company or they are bidding their time till their legal team can pounce.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Jeff Foust's write-up of the auction contains some interesting background:

http://spacenews.com/firefly-space-systems-assets-to-be-sold/

EOS Launcher, though, reserved the right to bid without making an advance deposit.

EOS Launcher approached the agency [Space Florida] and agreed to buy the promissory note at face value. [$1 million]

[meekGee]

bah.  full day today, no party crashing for me.

[mme]

VG is suing for IP not assets. As long as the assets are not engines, VG doesn't need to be involved.

Does anyone no the IP that VG claimed was stolen? Last I was aware Firefly was building a reusable, liquid propellent, VTVL smallsat launcher.  VG is building an air launched, horizontal landing, hybid and VO is building an air launched, solid propellent, expendable.

I guess the all use composites and there would be flight control software...

Edit: My mistake, not sure where I got the idea that LauncherOne was using solids.

[Kryten]

Does anyone no the IP that VG claimed was stolen? Last I was aware Firefly was building a reusable, liquid propellent, VTVL smallsat launcher.  VG is building an air launched, horizontal landing, hybid and VO is building an air launched, solid propellent, expendable.

LauncherOne is actually kerolox for both stages, and as far as we know the stolen information pertained to propulsion.

[russianhalo117]

Does anyone no the IP that VG claimed was stolen? Last I was aware Firefly was building a reusable, liquid propellent, VTVL smallsat launcher.  VG is building an air launched, horizontal landing, hybid and VO is building an air launched, solid propellent, expendable.

LauncherOne is actually kerolox for both stages, and as far as we know the stolen information pertained to propulsion.

it is my understanding that VG sought a gag order and NDA of those involved in the lawsuit. I do not know if the motions were granted by the court.

[mme]

Does anyone no the IP that VG claimed was stolen? Last I was aware Firefly was building a reusable, liquid propellent, VTVL smallsat launcher.  VG is building an air launched, horizontal landing, hybid and VO is building an air launched, solid propellent, expendable.

LauncherOne is actually kerolox for both stages, and as far as we know the stolen information pertained to propulsion.

Thanks, not sure where my bad head cannon came from. :/

[Toast]

Does anyone no the IP that VG claimed was stolen?

Designs for aerospike engines.

[Ragmar]

Any update on how the auction went down?

There are rumors that the auction was so restricted so that EOS Launchers could secure all of Firefly's assets for as little as possible.  This would allow for EOS to practically continue Firefly's work, or at least some of it.  Since EOS' head is a non-US citizen, they would reportedly employ some of the Firefly personnel to overcome the ITAR-related issues.

[Davidthefat]

Does anyone no the IP that VG claimed was stolen? Last I was aware Firefly was building a reusable, liquid propellent, VTVL smallsat launcher.  VG is building an air launched, horizontal landing, hybid and VO is building an air launched, solid propellent, expendable.

LauncherOne is actually kerolox for both stages, and as far as we know the stolen information pertained to propulsion.

Thanks, not sure where my bad head cannon came from. :/

Mistaken identity with Orbital ATK's Pegasus rocket? Similar air launch scheme.

[Proponent]

There are rumors that the auction was so restricted so that EOS Launchers could secure all of Firefly's assets for as little as possible.  This would allow for EOS to practically continue Firefly's work, or at least some of it.

Presumably, EOS would not be able to use the disputed IP, right?