Introducing Firefly Space Systems

[Wolfram66]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS-pDQdb2_4&feature=youtu.be

FFSS with Tom Markusic, and team.

Copper engine chamber. I mean, it's an impressive and slick video, but that's a copper engine, right - green flame? That has a certain place in the engine development cycle.

It might even be a Copper-Beryllium alloy. Stronger tensile strength than straight Cu. We used these in the Oil Drilling industry

[HMXHMX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS-pDQdb2_4&feature=youtu.be

FFSS with Tom Markusic, and team.

Copper engine chamber. I mean, it's an impressive and slick video, but that's a copper engine, right - green flame? That has a certain place in the engine development cycle.

It's almost certainly a calorimeter chamber, given the numerous taps for thermocouples.

[matthewkantar]

There is An article about Firefly on Aviation week's website, says combustion chamber has a milled copper liner with an electroplated nickle jacket. Article can be read if you register for free.


Matthew

[HMXHMX]

There is An article about Firefly on Aviation week's website, says combustion chamber has a milled copper liner with an electroplated nickle jacket. Article can be read if you register for free.


Matthew

Here's a screen capture from the aforementioned video.

[matthewkantar]

The part shown in the screen cap above looks printed to me. Thoughts?

Matthew

[Gliderflyer]

The part shown in the screen cap above looks printed to me. Thoughts?

Matthew

Probably a mock-up / display piece.

[Davidthefat]

Based on the CAD models on screen, it looks like they are gimballing 4 combustors on each axis of the vehicle. Also having the LOX and He lines going down the middle of the RP-1 tank.

[ringsider]

Based on the CAD models on screen, it looks like they are gimballing 4 combustors on each axis of the vehicle. Also having the LOX and He lines going down the middle of the RP-1 tank.

So they have four engines offset / outboard from the main ring of 8 .. I wonder what that does to aerospike performance?

[NaN]

Based on the CAD models on screen, it looks like they are gimballing 4 combustors on each axis of the vehicle. Also having the LOX and He lines going down the middle of the RP-1 tank.

So they have four engines offset / outboard from the main ring of 8 .. I wonder what that does to aerospike performance?

They may have put some old CAD model onscreen for the video instead of showing the latest. The screencap shows 8 combustors (with perhaps room for 10) in the primary ring plus 4 outboard combustors. The original Alpha/Gamma concept had 8 combustors in the ring for the center core and 4 for the side cores. The Alpha later increased to 10 combustors and is now at 12 combustors as reported and shown by the recent AviationWeek article - so this CAD rendering is not consistent with other things they have shown publicly.

[CameronD]

Based on the CAD models on screen, it looks like they are gimballing 4 combustors on each axis of the vehicle. Also having the LOX and He lines going down the middle of the RP-1 tank.

So they have four engines offset / outboard from the main ring of 8 .. I wonder what that does to aerospike performance?

They may have put some old CAD model onscreen for the video instead of showing the latest. The screencap shows 8 combustors (with perhaps room for 10) in the primary ring plus 4 outboard combustors. The original Alpha/Gamma concept had 8 combustors in the ring for the center core and 4 for the side cores. The Alpha later increased to 10 combustors and is now at 12 combustors as reported and shown by the recent AviationWeek article - so this CAD rendering is not consistent with other things they have shown publicly.

That sounds like the usual strategy.. work madly on V2.0 whilst publicly displaying V1.0.

[Nomic]

Quite a few of studies of aerospikes have proposed differential throttling instead of gimballing, which would seem to fit well with 12 separate combustion chambers. That is if it can provide enough control authority, also would be a lot of valves to manage. Alternatively could have a mix so 2D gimbaling for roll control, throttling for the rest? Lot of trades to look at.

[Lars-J]

Quite a few of studies of aerospikes have proposed differential throttling instead of gimballing, which would seem to fit well with 12 separate combustion chambers. That is if it can provide enough control authority, also would be a lot of valves to manage. Alternatively could have a mix so 2D gimbaling for roll control, throttling for the rest? Lot of trades to look at.

I believe that steering control (or limit thereof) has always been one of the reasons that projects have ultimately steered away from using aerospikes. (pun intended) So this may be a good compromise.

But yikes, 12 combustion chambers makes the F9 plumbing look simple in comparison. 

[ringsider]

Bad news from the lawsuit for Markusic/Firefly - the arbitrator has made a terminating sanctions ruling that basically says Markusic did take Virgin trade secrets, destroyed evidence that he took it, stonewalled the arbitration process, and transferred Virgin confidential information to Firefly computers. All Markusic counterclaims and answers are stricken as a sanction and these things are now basically taken as fact - Virgin doesn't need to prove he took all the information, just to prove that it was used. It is also taken as fact that he solicited a wide range of Virgin employees. Here are some extracts, this is public record in the LA court system case # BC609407:-

"It is appropriate to find that the destruction of evidence was intentional since it has been so systematic and thorough. Respondent [Markusic] claims ignorance about legal proceedings, but that protestation rings hollow at this point. Unlike the Williams case, Respondent did not allow someone else to destroy evidence - he did it himself, and more than once. He also orchestrated or failed to prevent destruction of files by others connected to Firefly."

"A thorough review of the evidence in this case and a careful analysis of its history leaves the Arbitrator with the abiding conviction the Respondent and his compatriots [King, Blum, and Firefly] have completely undermined this action. Under the circumstances it is appropriate to foreclose any effort by Respondent to attempt to demonstrate that he does not possess Claimant's [Virgin Galactic] claimed proprietary and trade secret information. The Arbitrator is of the view that at the evidentiary hearings, Claimant must prove only Respondent's use of this information." Aug 16 2016, Judge Lamothe, case no. 01-12-0002-2467.

Ouch.

[QuantumG]

I think that's actually good for Firefly. They say they were opposed to Virgin Galactic's fishing expedition and now they don't have to turn over anything (I guess), which is what they wanted. If they're returned to arbitration at this point, a settlement is more likely, and Firefly might survive - maybe.

[ChrisWilson68]

That's true, now they don't have to worry about turning over all their internal docs to Virgin.

I hope they settle soon and everyone can move forward without the uncertainty of this issue hanging over everything.  I also hope Firefly remains independent.  It's better to have more competitors.  Even though most will go out of business, the more there are, the more likely a good solution will emerge.

[Davidthefat]

Now, what are the potential outcomes if the court finds that Markusic did use Virgins information and resources? Is it just a big payment to Virgin and potentially goes bankrupt? Firefly gets acquired? If Firefly does go defunct, Virgin still can't use any technology they found by reading the documents that Markusic handed over. What's the end game here?

[TrevorMonty]

Firefly is in direct competition to VG, given the upper hand I doubt VG will leave them alone. Best Firefly can hope for is VG taking stake in Firefly, long term maybe merger with VG.

[savuporo]

Referring back to earlier in the thread. A company of 140 people, with plan to hire 60 more by years end. That is a very respectable sized team. Must put a real damper on hiring prospects.
If VG somehow forces this into ruin or a merger they probably would have little to no hope of retaining these folks, i would think. Really sh*tty situation with no good outcomes.

[ringsider]

Referring back to earlier in the thread. A company of 140 people, with plan to hire 60 more by years end. That is a very respectable sized team. Must put a real damper on hiring prospects.
If VG somehow forces this into ruin or a merger they probably would have little to no hope of retaining these folks, i would think. Really sh*tty situation with no good outcomes.

Well it's hard to hold VG to blame for defending their rights. The rulings also point out that the Firefly team knew litigation was likely while they were setting up Firefly.

There's a late 2013 quote from a guy called Dan Coughlin at VG, who they tried to recruit:

"[w]e should strategize on how best for you and the team to transition. If you/we do anything to appear to do the company harm, VG could take legal action. Drowning people thrash. An injunction would grind FF to a halt quickly."

There's another passage that says:-

'[Markusic] forwarded his email to Blum and King to share his strategy with them writing '"I'm trying to head this IP issue off". King responded that the message had "the slight read of someone who is aware that they [VG] may be contemplating a suit". As [VG] argues, "in light of these documents, there is no doubt that Dr. Markusic reasonably anticipated litigation with Virgin Galactic at the time he destroyed relevant evidence."

Then this:

On or about December 5 2013, Markusic called Virgin Galactic's General Counsel, Marc Holzapfel, to inquire about whether he could carve out his work on aerospike technology from the scope of the intellectual property assignment provision of his intellectual property agreement. Markusic followed up with Holzapfel by email on or about December 23 2013, asking "any news... on the aerospike exemptions amendment to my employment agreement? This is important to me." Virgin Galactic did not agree to Markusic's request.

That quote right there shows the core issue.

The judge says:-

"Beginning in late 2013, [Markusic] and his co-founders obviously knew that they could be sued as a result of their actions."

I honestly can't blame Virgin if there are consequences.

[Darkseraph]

All the same, it would extremely suck if legal action resulted in the shuttering of Firefly. Autogenously Pressurized Methane Aerospike Rocket on a Composite Body has a nice ring to it!

Markusic's company are really pushing the state of the art and it would be a shame if those technologies were obstructed by legal action.