Introducing Firefly Space Systems

[Prober]

Firefly Gamma is a reusable flyback rocket: https://twitter.com/marsbeyond/status/602008558834569216

ahhh, another paper rocket company.  Wished they had a few launches before bringing out the Firefly Gamma.  Credibility is everything.

[TrevorMonty]

Firefly Gamma is a reusable flyback rocket: https://twitter.com/marsbeyond/status/602008558834569216

ahhh, another paper rocket company.  Wished they had a few launches before bringing out the Firefly Gamma.  Credibility is everything.

This maybe a PR strategy to help with raising finance. I would have more confidence as an investor if they showed working HW. Eg first test fire of an engine or part of an engine.

Rocketlab seems to be more focus. They only talk about the current version of Electron being constructed. A lot of there PR content contains existing HW eg electric turbo for working engine.

[Robotbeat]

Honestly, I find Firefly more credible because they have a plan for a higher revenue medium launch vehicle. There are starting to be lots of micro launch companies.

[meekGee]

Can anyone explain how Gamma works?

Is it a winged SSTO?  'cause that's quite a claim...

Are we missing throw-away boosters?   Does it ride on a different rocket?

[Robotbeat]

Can anyone explain how Gamma works?

Is it a winged SSTO?  'cause that's quite a claim...

Are we missing throw-away boosters?   Does it ride on a different rocket?

The nose is probably an expendable upper stage.

[meekGee]

Can anyone explain how Gamma works?

Is it a winged SSTO?  'cause that's quite a claim...

Are we missing throw-away boosters?   Does it ride on a different rocket?

The nose is probably an expendable upper stage.

Yes, that makes sense.  The Canards made it look very integral. 
The caption indeed says "reusable rocket-plane" - which is the first stage.

VTHL or HTHL?  Those canards might help flight before separation, when the nose is heavy (though they are not particularly large)

[Lars-J]

Firefly Gamma is a reusable flyback rocket: https://twitter.com/marsbeyond/status/602008558834569216

Somebody *really* likes wings, I guess.

So what magical performance increase are going to introduce between Beta and Gamma that will allow them to move from a 3 (or 2.5) stage launch vehicle to an SSTO space plane? (or is gamma just a Beta boster with wings?)

And in the Alpha in 2 years, Beta in 4 years, and Gamma in 7 years? These guys make SpaceX look like conservative schedulers.

[ChrisWilson68]

Firefly Gamma is a reusable flyback rocket: https://twitter.com/marsbeyond/status/602008558834569216

Somebody *really* likes wings, I guess.

So what magical performance increase are going to introduce between Beta and Gamma that will allow them to move from a 3 (or 2.5) stage launch vehicle to an SSTO space plane? (or is gamma just a Beta boster with wings?)

And in the Alpha in 2 years, Beta in 4 years, and Gamma in 7 years? These guys make SpaceX look like conservative schedulers.

I really doubt Gamma is intended to be SSTO, though it's unclear what form they intend staging to take.  Maybe something strapped to the side?  Maybe the front portion is an upper stage?  Maybe an internal payload bay for the upper stage?

It's too bad all we have is a photo of a slide projected on a screen with the resolution too low to make out everything written on it, and we don't have a transcript of what was said in relation to the slide.

Or maybe that's good because it lets us go crazy speculating.

[hernick]

It's too bad all we have is a photo of a slide projected on a screen with the resolution too low to make out everything written on it, and we don't have a transcript of what was said in relation to the slide.

Here's my reading of the slide:

2017
Firefly "Alpha"
Payload: 400kg
$1M production cost goal
Weekly launches

2019
Firefly "Beta"
Payload: 1000kg
Alpha upper stage
Re-usable strap-on boosters

2022
Firefly "Gamma"
Payload: 5000kg
Re-usable rocket plane
<2k$/kg payload [..hidden..]
Upgradeable[..hidden..]

[Robotbeat]

Firefly Gamma is a reusable flyback rocket: https://twitter.com/marsbeyond/status/602008558834569216

Somebody *really* likes wings, I guess.

So what magical performance increase are going to introduce between Beta and Gamma that will allow them to move from a 3 (or 2.5) stage launch vehicle to an SSTO space plane? (or is gamma just a Beta boster with wings?)...

Neither. Space Plane does not imply SSTO. Gamma looks much larger in diameter (and longer) than Alpha. My guess is it's about 10 times the volume than Gamma, which fits in with the ~5 tons payload vs 400kg (considering when you're operating at very small scales, there's a big advantage in payload efficiency when you scale up) even taking into account recovery (presumably of the first stage).

And in the Alpha in 2 years, Beta in 4 years, and Gamma in 7 years? These guys make SpaceX look like conservative schedulers.

Remember they're also operating at a smaller scale. SpaceX was actually more ambitious at that time, hoping to bang out F1 then F5 soon after that, immediately followed by F9.

[meekGee]

All I can say is that I'm more accepting of a winged first stage than I am of wings that go to orbit.

[TrevorMonty]

Jeff Foust (@jeff_foust) tweeted at 8:27 AM on Thu, Jun 11, 2015:
Damphousse: begin hot fire tests of engine this summer at test site (which, he adds, comes complete with cows, “just like SpaceX.”)

[Katana]

Honestly, I find Firefly more credible because they have a plan for a higher revenue medium launch vehicle. There are starting to be lots of micro launch companies.

Firefly alpha, 44.5kN per engine, 9+1, 400kg to LEO
Rlabs Electron, 22kN per engine, 9+1, 100kg to SSO (implies ~200kg to LEO)

2:1 size difference, not too difficult to scale if the initial version gets running.
Besides, SSO capabilities means better understanding of the market.

[Kryten]

 A number of engineers from Firefly have given an interview on the 'Orbital Mechanics' podcast (starting at about 39 minutes).
 Some highlights;
- They're working on a Kerolox version with helium pressurisation as a backup, most of the prior experience of the team is in kerolox
- The engine approaching hotfire tests is an engine 'very similar to' the FRE-1 upper-stage engine
- FRE-2 Aerospike now planned to use 12 combustion modules
- Individual thrust chambers on FRE-1 and FRE-2 are identical
- Both Alpha and Beta are planned as fully expendable
- Gamma is a concept, not under active development
- Gamma intended to use horizontal take-off and landing, both on runway, fairing is hinged and retained for aerodynamics
- Still considering launchsite, LC-39C is a possibility
- The Alpha design is still being heavily worked on, they haven't determined if electronics will be routed through tanks or through external raceway
- Horizontal integration of launcher+payload
- Work being done now is mainly preparation for engine tests 'this summer' and then pressure-testing a full-scale tank under cryo conditions 'within the next six months'
- First launch in 2017 is suborbital
- Manufacture and testing both planned for Briggs, Texas.
- Test site is 90% complete

[TrevorMonty]

Thanks for link Kryten, these Orbital Mechanics podcasts are great find.

[Katana]

Boosters have same size and less engines compared to the core 1st stage.
So the boosters have longer working time than the core ? Or it have cross fed?
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5439a3d0e4b0dedc218f23b9/t/55897d1ae4b01bc9a6d6683c/1435073821067/?format=500w

[Skyrocket]

Boosters have same size and less engines compared to the core 1st stage.
So the boosters have longer working time than the core ? Or it have cross fed?
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5439a3d0e4b0dedc218f23b9/t/55897d1ae4b01bc9a6d6683c/1435073821067/?format=500w

The boosters obviously do not have the same size as the core.

[Kryten]

 Firefly have released the payload users guide for Alpha.
EDIT: Some interesting points;
- Alpha is now Kerolox with helium pressurisation, as was previously reported as their backup plan
- The first stage contains an IMU and flight computer-may show landing is being considered, but reusability not explicitly mentioned
- Launch site apparently still undecided, payload figures calculated for launch from equator
- Livestream during launch and HD footage of payload separation are both to be provided as standard to customers

[Mader Levap]

- Livestream during launch and HD footage of payload separation are both to be provided as standard to customers

It is not standard already?

[TrevorMonty]

Firefly a developing a few new technologies, high pressure composite fuel tanks for pressure feed engine, aerospike, methane engine plus a new LV and facilities from scratch. Switching from methane to RP1 reduces the business risk from added development delays, especially as Firefly collectively as lot of engineering experience developing RP1 engines. This doesn't mean they have shelved the lower cost methane engine LV, just delayed it while they look after business.

Their SSO 500km price per kg ($8m for 200kg) is directly competitive with Rocketlab $4.9m for 110kg.