Author Topic: Fission-Free Orion (Fusion-Only)  (Read 12197 times)

Offline kkattula

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Re: Fission-Free Orion (Fusion-Only)
« Reply #20 on: 01/06/2014 03:04 AM »
OMG, do people not understand that these metastable materials are only (meta) stable near the immensely high pressures they're created at?

You can't make them, then save them in some lightweight storage system.  Reduce the pressure just a little bit, and they revert.

Anti-matter is far more energetic, yet far easier to store, and that's still horrendously difficult in quantities sufficient to trigger fusion.
« Last Edit: 01/06/2014 03:04 AM by kkattula »

Offline scienceguy

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Re: Fission-Free Orion (Fusion-Only)
« Reply #21 on: 01/06/2014 03:12 AM »
OMG, do people not understand that these metastable materials are only (meta) stable near the immensely high pressures they're created at?

You can't make them, then save them in some lightweight storage system.  Reduce the pressure just a little bit, and they revert.

Anti-matter is far more energetic, yet far easier to store, and that's still horrendously difficult in quantities sufficient to trigger fusion.

I would like to second kkattula's post. Liquid metallic hydrogen needs huge pressures. That's why it exists in the core of Jupiter, where there are tremendous pressures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter#Internal_structure

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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Fission-Free Orion (Fusion-Only)
« Reply #22 on: 01/06/2014 03:13 AM »
well that may be true for hydrogen. i don't know. the articles i read seemed as if that had not been determined yet. and for other metastable materials i know that pressure is not a factor. E.G; metastable helium.

nucleon based metastable stuff is driven by high energy photons and the deal with halfnium was its natural relaxation time was supposed to be measured in years but it turned out that it was not as easy as they supposed to create enough exited nucleons or to trigger them  to relax in useful amounts and rates.
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Fission-Free Orion (Fusion-Only)
« Reply #23 on: 01/06/2014 03:15 AM »
it is my understanding from the articles i have read on it that no one knew if it was stable once created or not. the articles i read always said "if it proves stable at..."etc.

OMG, do people not understand that these metastable materials are only (meta) stable near the immensely high pressures they're created at?

You can't make them, then save them in some lightweight storage system.  Reduce the pressure just a little bit, and they revert.

Anti-matter is far more energetic, yet far easier to store, and that's still horrendously difficult in quantities sufficient to trigger fusion.

I would like to second kkattula's post. Liquid metallic hydrogen needs huge pressures. That's why it exists in the core of Jupiter, where there are tremendous pressures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter#Internal_structure
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Fission-Free Orion (Fusion-Only)
« Reply #24 on: 01/06/2014 03:26 AM »
for metastable helium:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040804131304/http://www.islandone.org/APC/Chemical/07.html

Quote
For metastable helium, the lowest triplet state of helium corresponds to a configuration in which there is one electron each in the 1s and 2s atomic orbitals with both electrons having parallel spins (triplet spin state). This configuration is both orbital angular momentum and spin angular momentum "forbidden" to transfer to the ground state configuration and is thus metastable. (The ground state configuration consists of two electrons with opposite spins in the 1s orbitals; the opposite or antiparallel spins form a singlet spin state. The electron in the 2s orbital is "forbidden" to go to the 1s orbital; likewise the electron spin is "forbidden" from going from the triplet to singlet spin state.)

Quote
Metastable electronically-excited triplet helium (He*) can release 114 kcal/g when the atom returns to its ground (unexcited) electronic state (He). This is over twice the energy available with atomic hydrogen and results in an ideal Isp of about 3150 lbf-s/lbm. Recent theoretical models have suggested that it may be possible to form a room temperature molecular solid containing diatomic molecules made from one excited and one ground state helium atom (He2*).

This solid, denoted He IV-A, could be used in solid propellant rockets; the Isp would be about 2200 lbf-s/lbm corresponding to a 50% concentration of He*. This is an Isp characteristic of electric propulsion systems and yet a metastable helium rocket would have the advantage of high thrust and high Isp. Finally, when compared to the atomic hydrogen propellant, the higher Isp and higher density of a solid metastable helium propellant would minimize the density-Isp and mass fraction difficulties encountered with an atomic hydrogen rocket.

and can be created by photon bombardment and particle bombardment so it is not as problematic to create as metallic hydrogen.
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Fission-Free Orion (Fusion-Only)
« Reply #25 on: 01/06/2014 03:30 AM »
on metallic hydrogen did you see where there is proposed research to see if the pressure requirement can be altered by injection of electrons into solid hydrogen? it seems to me that this admits to the possibility that making metallic hydrogen and maintaining it may be possible under less radical conditions than is generally believed. they are at least checking it out or thinking about doing so.
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Online sanman

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Re: Fission-Free Orion (Fusion-Only)
« Reply #26 on: 01/06/2014 04:31 AM »
OMG, do people not understand that these metastable materials are only (meta) stable near the immensely high pressures they're created at?

You can't make them, then save them in some lightweight storage system.  Reduce the pressure just a little bit, and they revert.

Anti-matter is far more energetic, yet far easier to store, and that's still horrendously difficult in quantities sufficient to trigger fusion.

I would like to second kkattula's post. Liquid metallic hydrogen needs huge pressures. That's why it exists in the core of Jupiter, where there are tremendous pressures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter#Internal_structure

Some say that metallic hydrogen could be stored inside buckeyballs.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080320095005.htm

Offline bad_astra

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Re: Fission-Free Orion (Fusion-Only)
« Reply #27 on: 01/06/2014 04:01 PM »
Isn't Slough's group working on a fission free fusion rocket (imploding lithium liner, as I recall)
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Fission-Free Orion (Fusion-Only)
« Reply #28 on: 01/06/2014 04:52 PM »
i think so. there are many ways to go about fission free fusion. fission usually enters into it as a solution to the implosion or energy input problem. First generation fusion drives will probably just barely reach breakeven and will probably be just a few multiples of improvement on Voyager's speed and will probably breakdown a lot. as the technology matures it will get more steady, faster and be more durable.
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