FH to the moon?

[guckyfan]

Put a small prop stage with vacuum optimized SuperDraco or maybe even a Kestrel engine and you'll get much better performance and it might even be simpler to do.

Quite possible that this is the easiest, cheapest and most efficient solution. One or two SuperDraco with vacuum nozzle, two for redundancy if assumed necessary. But the built in SuperDracos might be usable too.

[manboy]

thanks for the link manboy

No problem. It seems like the "disappearing post" problem continues.

[newpylong]

Steve Jurvetson has declared he wants a flight to LLO for a foto session. They may make him a good price. FH can do  TLI. They need to increase the delta-v of Dragon for LOI and TEI. Put some extra fuel in the trunk.

Is Jurvetson going to pay to have the trunk modified for liquid fuel tanks and all of the other modifications for BLEO? He has deep pockets but that is an expensive joyride.

[sdsds]

This is from a different thread but I think it is highly relevant here:

For a while we (outside observers) have assumed that Dragon would always involve an expendable nose cap and an expendable trunk. Now I'm not so certain that Dragon will retain any expendable flight hardware in its ultimate specification.

The nose and trunk appear to be undergoing a more significant redesign than many of us anticipated. And this is following on the heels of a Falcon redesign that turned out to be more comprehensive than the initial speculation. For all we know, the new Dragon could have its radiators installed inside the rumored "fins" and allow the trunk section to be offered as an optional equipment package for carrying unpressurized cargo.

It will be interesting to see the public reveal. I suspect there will still be surprises for well-informed fans.

Some of these details could have a major impact on any Dragon evolved from the "new Dragon." In particular, making the thermal control system entirely contained within the capsule module via radiators installed inside fins. Combined with an alternate power solution, this leaves the "trunk" space fully available for use as a disposable propulsion stage.

[Ben the Space Brit]

An unmodified FH could launch an off-the-shelf Dragonlab onto a lunar free-return trajectory. However, Dragon couldn't brake into orbit. An MPS (likely based on Superdraco or Kestrel) would be needed. IMO, even though many would see it as a stunt, a free-return Dragonlab mission around the Moon carrying active and passive sensors in the trunk and BEO environment analysing sensors in the cabin and on the boom would be a good way of proving Dragonlab is suitable for BEO missions (shades of Red Dragon). Getting the capsule through the atmosphere to recover the bubble chambers and whatever else you have in the cabin would also be a nice test of whether Dragon's TPS and geometry is good for cis-lunar missions.

A crewed lunar mission using FH would need to save delta-v wherever possible to maximise the amount of propellent available for ROI. Staging through EML-1 would be one way of doing so, as would Lagrangian rendezvous of the Dragon and lander. I still think that a higher-impulse upper stage engine will be needed for crew-to-Luna using Falcon Heavy; maybe a methane-burning version of Merlin-1D-VAC to push the Isp up into the 360s or even beyond.

[edit]
A bit of clarification

[rockinghorse]

Falcon Heavy will have reusable boosters and first stage, so it is quite improbable that it can actually deliver 53 tons into LEO. Therefore possible Moon spacecraft must be delivered into LEO in 20–30 ton chunks. But I do not see orbital assembly a problem at all. In practice Dragon + upper stage makes fast enough Moon lander vehicle and the rest is just getting external fuel tanks into orbit.

As SpaceX or Musk has pointed out, Dragon can land equally well into Mars, Earth or Moon.

Therefore I would guess that we need one Falcon 9R launch that delivers upper stage+astronauts into orbit. Then we need one (or two) Falcon Heavy launch that delivers external fuel tanks for Grey Dragon lander and upper stage. And about four Falcon Heavy launches that delivers Moon rover, habitat and other science equipments into Moon.

There is one important detail that is worthy to consider. The reusable upper stage can probably also land on Moon. This helps a lot with equipment delivery and it may be possible that it is not necessary to use Dragon's SuperDragos at all for Moon landing and ascend. This simplifies things as there is no need for Apollo style orbital docking with Moon lander. Only external fuel tanks must be incorporated into Moon spacecraft at LEO, but this should not be a problem.

This would be super cheap to operate although initial R&D expenses are several billions. But this concept to use upper stage as Lunar Lander vehicle would enable commercial Moon trips. As everything — expect external fuel tanks — are fully reusable, this should push the costs down quite considerably. Perhaps just few millions per tourist.

Later we could have Lunar refueling station that tourists could be launched with single Falcon Heavy upper stage into Moon and then upper stage is refueled on Moon and upper stage is launched back to Earth. No need for separate Dragon module. This could push down the cost even further. But this is of course long term project and I do not expect it to fly before 2020's.

[Jcc]

How about just sending a small rover to win the Google X Prize?

[Bargemanos]

How about just sending a small rover to win the Google X Prize?

http://www.astrobotic.com/2011/02/06/astrobotic-technology-announces-lunar-mission-on-spacex-falcon-9/

[Dave G]

By now, it should be obvious that there is no way to do a manned lunar surface mission with the currently planned FH and Dragon.  In other words, a manned moon mission would require additional hardware.

SpaceX has also made clear they are not very interested in the moon.  In other words, they're not going to develop new hardware for a moon mission on their dime.  SpaceX may be willing to lunar launch someone else's hardware, but that's about it.  They're not going to spend their own resources on a lunar mission.  They've clearly set their sights on Mars.

However, I do believe they can send Dragon around the moon without landing.  That would be a helluva ride.  People would pay for that.  And it would require no additional hardware development for SpaceX.  So that will probably happen.

[rpapo]

And apart from the resultant PR, it would serve as a first-class test of the PICA-X heat shield.

I do not for one moment think that the Dragon's current delta-V, even with the SuperDracos, would be enough to perform both a lunar orbit insertion and a return boost back, so I don't believe they would be doing a repeat of Apollo 8.  More like a repeat of Apollo 13 . . . hopefully without the malfunction.

[savuporo]

How about just sending a small rover to win the Google X Prize?

Spend $100M on a launch to win 20M prize ? ( ignoring all the time, money, spezialized skills and manhours required actually build a spacecraft capable of landing on the moon )

[KelvinZero]

By now, it should be obvious that there is no way to do a manned lunar surface mission with the currently planned FH and Dragon.  In other words, a manned moon mission would require additional hardware.

SpaceX has also made clear they are not very interested in the moon.  In other words, they're not going to develop new hardware for a moon mission on their dime.  SpaceX may be willing to lunar launch someone else's hardware, but that's about it.  They're not going to spend their own resources on a lunar mission.  They've clearly set their sights on Mars.

I agree about SpaceX not going out on any limb creating lunar landers etc. On the other hand I think there have been a few comments suggesting they would be interested in capturing business for landing scientific missions etc? I mean where they are paid up front and there is ongoing business. For example I remember a quote on some website that Elon had claimed they would charge $80m for one ton cargo missions during Constellation, and another that Elon described Dragon as a platform for landing on any body.. I interpreted that to mean the experience would qualify them to make small (eg unmanned and one way) lunar and mars landers and get immediate cash.

(sorry about just quoting from my very shoddy memory.. can anyone else identify that dragon quote?)

[sdsds]

I agree SpaceX isn't likely interested in a version of Dragon customized such that it is solely suited for lunar surface missions. I propose here by means of the attached diagram an "Extended Duration Mission Kit" which would be an add-on to Crewed Dragon. I make some assumptions about what Crewed Dragon will include different from Cargo Dragon, and those are shown in the diagram through use of various colors.

Starting with the basic Cargo Dragon in brown, I've added in pink features I hope to see in Crewed Dragon:
 + Electrical power provided by batteries
 + Thermal control provided by "capsule fin" radiators
 + NDS-compatible SpaceX docking system

The extended duration mission kit shown in blue includes:
 + SpaceX docking system electrical and propellant transfer
 + propellant storage tanks
 + photovoltaic electrical power generation

The propellant tanks in this mission kit would be sized to meet the demands of the mission type with the largest delta-v requirement. I here assume that to be lunar ascent.

Anyway, I hope the picture is worth at least some fraction of a thousand words. "Happy Christmas to all!"

[Lobo]

I don't think this would work, not even with Saturn V. Apollo couldn't do this for the same reason SpaceX can't: delta-v from the lunar surface to Earth is too much. Apollo did LOR because they didn't have to eat the delta-v penalty of landing the return fuel and then having to return from the wrong side of that delta-v deficit.

The direct return idea would have required an even larger rocket than Saturn V. The cosine losses and under expanded exhaust from the superdracos just make it worse, they make delta-v worse when you're already incurring a large delta-v penalty.

Apollo was incredibly well optimized for the problem at hand. A simpler mission would have required a far larger launcher.

I Didn't realize it was -that- inefficient.  I thought they opted for a separate lander because it would result in a more capable mission with the same size launcher...and they had lots of money....and the technical difficulties of incorporating both functions into a single Apollo CSM. 

Then this probably wouldn't work. 

Yeah, would probably be workable. The thing to do would be to use one superdraco and give it a huge expansion nozzle. It would be pretty close to the Apollo SM main propulsion.

yea, they'd already have a hypergolic engine of adequate capability.

Two FH launches would probably be the minimum required to get a man to the surface and back home.  Capability for the surface mission would still be fairly limited. 

[Lobo]

I wonder if they could use the Dragon pressure vessel to make a simple lander.  There wouldn't be any downward visibility so it'd have to land using cameras or using an automated system.  Put the pressure vessel on top of a hypergolic descent stage.  The pressure vessel would have a single downward facing central superdraco as the ascent engine.  The descent stage would have the same thing.  The Dragon Pressure vessel already is designed to have a side hatch, so the cabin could be pressurized and depressurized like the LEM was.  The DM could have a porch on it so the astronauts could step out the side hatch onto the porch. 

It'd still be a whole new vehicle development, but at least it'd have some commonality with Dragon.   

[guckyfan]

I wonder if they could use the Dragon pressure vessel to make a simple lander. 

....

It'd still be a whole new vehicle development, but at least it'd have some commonality with Dragon.   

But why would they? Designing a pressure vessel is not difficult. The Dragon pressure vessel is designed to fit into a cone shape for earth reentry. It is not the optimal design for a moon lander.

They can have all the commonality with Dragon they can wish for by using the avionics, Dracos and a modified SuperDraco.

[Ben the Space Brit]

I wonder if they could use the Dragon pressure vessel to make a simple lander. 

....

It'd still be a whole new vehicle development, but at least it'd have some commonality with Dragon.   

But why would they?

Really, the only reason would be simplifying the production line so that you don't have to have separate basic fabrication for the two crewed spacecraft. I'm sure they could also reuse bits of the landing software for the crewed Dragon too.

IMO, the long pole would be Superdraco-VAC, the Exploration Dragon MPS (I'm still voting for a LCH4/LO2 version of Kestrel) and the high-impulse upper stage (buy MB60 off-the-shelf from Mitsubishi Heavy?).

[CuddlyRocket]

... I do believe [SpaceX] can send Dragon around the moon without landing.  That would be a helluva ride.  People would pay for that.  And it would require no additional hardware development for SpaceX.  So that will probably happen.

And apart from the resultant PR, it would serve as a first-class test of the PICA-X heat shield.

I do not for one moment think that the Dragon's current delta-V, even with the SuperDracos, would be enough to perform both a lunar orbit insertion and a return boost back, so I don't believe they would be doing a repeat of Apollo 8.  More like a repeat of Apollo 13 . . . hopefully without the malfunction.

The manned Dragon will have to be tested, and with a crew, at some point. Obvious scenarios are LEO atop an F9. However, SpaceX have made it clear that they are interested in selling manned Dragon flights to parties other than NASA, and the wider the demonstrated envelope of mission scenarios the bigger the potential market. So, perhaps they might consider putting a manned Dragon atop an FH and slinging it round the Moon. As well as demonstrating the capabilities of the craft on a 6-day mission, there is also the demonstration of SpaceX navigational abilities etc.

More expensive; but are there benefits worth that cost? Media exposure / PR of course - especially if they send a woman and an ethnic minority person (only white men have been to date) - but there's an opportunity for sponsorship, advertising or the making of an IMAX documentary etc. as well as paid flights (perhaps). But more importantly would be the engineering credibility - they might at that point be the only entity on the planet able to send people to the Moon!

[guckyfan]

It is quite clear that they are not interested in sending people to the moon, unless someone pays including the development. Doing it with FH they would need a dedicated lander and two or three launches.

Once MCT is flying they may be able to do a moon mission with a refuelled upper stage without a separate orbiter and land significant payload along with crew. But that would be OT for this thread.

They could do the slingshot. Probably with a service module they could do moon orbits with one FH. That might not be too expensive for excentric billionaires even including the service module development.

[rst]

The manned Dragon will have to be tested, and with a crew, at some point. Obvious scenarios are LEO atop an F9. However, SpaceX have made it clear that they are interested in selling manned Dragon flights to parties other than NASA, and the wider the demonstrated envelope of mission scenarios the bigger the potential market. So, perhaps they might consider putting a manned Dragon atop an FH and slinging it round the Moon. As well as demonstrating the capabilities of the craft on a 6-day mission, there is also the demonstration of SpaceX navigational abilities etc.

And if something goes wrong with the life support, the crew is likely dead, as the lack of delta-V for LOI/TEI also means that the spacecraft lacks the delta-V for early aborts.  Apollo did do Apollo 7, which was 11 days in a CSM in LEO, before trying anything else.

Even if they want to do this for some other reason, it seems like a crazy thing to do with the spacecraft the first time out.