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Poll proposal: should the US collaborate in space with China?
by
pagheca
on 20 Dec, 2013 21:32
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There are many threads discussing what the US can/can't do under the ITAR, how ITAR is evolving, problems (like the Kepler conference), etc.
However, It would be interesting to see how many of the participants to the forum - that I suppose are mostly US citizen well informed about space issues - would agree in collaborating with China in space.
As usual, things are not white and black. This is a list of pro and cons of an open collaboration between the US and China that came to my mind:
PRO
(1) more control and knowledge on Chinese activities in space would be functional, not detrimental, to US security.
(2) other space agencies - notably Russian and ESA - are already collaborating and supporting the CNSP. This vanify any effort to isolate and delay China programs, and would put NASA and the US in a corner, out of a potential market.
(3) a collaboration with the Chinese could be used to obtain something else on the many international issues between China and the US.
(4) soon or later, a collaboration with China will be due.
CON
(1) China demonstrated in the past to be an unreliable, aggressive country, involved in hacking attempts (e.g. Landsat-7 event), technology transfer, industrial spying. And it doesn't respect copyright.
(2) too many human rights systematic violations by that country.
(3) the Chinese are still trailing other space power. So, it is better to exclude them by now to delay their development.
Of course I have my opinions about that (and I do not agree with some of these points), but I tried to be objective.
If you like the idea, can someone please create a POLL on this issue? I suggest 4 options:
1) In the interest of the US it would be better to avoid any collaboration with the Chinese at this time.
2) In the interest of the US it would be better to start a minimal collaboration with China in space.
3) We should start fully collaborating with the Chinese as we already do with the other space powers
4) Frankly speaking, I do not know...
cheers
p.s. I couldn't understand how to create a poll. I guess you need to be a full member to do that, right?
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#1
by
MadCow
on 20 Dec, 2013 22:36
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If the US wants to isolate China, she isolates herself instead. The idea to isolate someone else is plainly short-sighted and childish. It always ends up in tears. China used to be the strongest and the most advanced country in the world. She chose to close the door and keep her advantage safe. The result was catastrophic.
The future of human race lies in the cooperation of the whole human race. We're one.
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#2
by
pagheca
on 20 Dec, 2013 22:40
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Thanks for your comment, but I would like to know how many, in an educated (to space) public like this, think that, and how many think quite the opposite.
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#3
by
Satori
on 20 Dec, 2013 22:52
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
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#4
by
savuporo
on 20 Dec, 2013 23:00
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
Actually exactly the opposite. US closed the door, not china. In fact Chinese have been pretty vocal about inviting everyone to collaborate especially over last few months
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#5
by
Danderman
on 20 Dec, 2013 23:09
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Yes.
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#6
by
RonM
on 20 Dec, 2013 23:10
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
Of course, China should collaborate with the US and NASA should be allowed to collaborate with China.
The only thing blocking this is a small group of xenophobic politicians in Congress that need to be reminded that US policy towards China since the Nixon administration has been engagement. Our two countries are now major trading partners with intertwined economies. Sure, we have our differences, but we have a lot in common.
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#7
by
Satori
on 20 Dec, 2013 23:22
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
Actually exactly the opposite. US closed the door, not china. In fact Chinese have been pretty vocal about inviting everyone to collaborate especially over last few months
That's why the question... After so many years of US denying access to international projects, why should China collaborate with the US?
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#8
by
QuantumG
on 20 Dec, 2013 23:28
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
Actually exactly the opposite. US closed the door, not china. In fact Chinese have been pretty vocal about inviting everyone to collaborate especially over last few months
Some Chinese have.
Who does China collaborate with now?
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#9
by
savuporo
on 20 Dec, 2013 23:41
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They collaborate with multiple entities. ESA, Russians, also ILO
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#10
by
QuantumG
on 20 Dec, 2013 23:48
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They collaborate with multiple entities. ESA, Russians, also ILO
Oh, is
that all we're talking about? As far as I can tell, they're not any better off for the experience than the US.
I thought the OP was talking about an ISS-scale cooperation.
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#11
by
Jim
on 21 Dec, 2013 00:22
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Still haven't seen a reason provided
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#12
by
Khadgars
on 21 Dec, 2013 00:24
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
Why is that? Chinese launch rate is worse than the worse case scenario of SLS.
But if you want my honest opinion, I do not really see the up side right now. Its not like China has its doors wide open for unlimited cooperation.
I could see maybe collaborating on some planetary science missions but not much beyond that for a while.
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#13
by
Phillip Clark
on 21 Dec, 2013 01:15
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The Chinese should not bother collaborating with the USA.
Historically, the USA has a record of breaking agreements and making unilateral decisions which its partners then have to work around. It is much better for China to develop its own expertise and let the USA decline as a "space power".
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#14
by
mr. mark
on 21 Dec, 2013 01:24
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Don't let all the negative US talk fool you. There will be SLS, Falcon and Atlas rockets flying from Florida for a long time to come. Also, there will be a mission manifest for US manned operations if not during the current administration then most likely with the next one. The US doesn't like to play second to any nation and I'm pretty sure Elon Musk does not as well. The US manned space program is a sleeping giant awaiting to arouse from it's slumber soon.
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#15
by
pagheca
on 21 Dec, 2013 11:04
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The Chinese should not bother collaborating with the USA.
That's another issue... I've been told by an high rank ESA manager that at a meeting more than an year ago the Chineses were so upset by something the Head of the US delegation said, that their Head said in private later to him they will never collaborate anymore with the US in space.
Actually it was something like a Confucio quote, in a very Chinese fashion - but I heard this story long ago and cannot remember what exactly said.
Of course "never" doesn't exist in politics. And... please don't blame the messenger. I'm just reporting, not necessarily supporting.
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#16
by
pagheca
on 21 Dec, 2013 13:03
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nobody here is interested in creating the POLL or just tell me how to do that (although I'm afraid you need to be full member)?
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#17
by
savuporo
on 21 Dec, 2013 17:01
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They collaborate with multiple entities. ESA, Russians, also ILO
Oh, is that all we're talking about? As far as I can tell, they're not any better off for the experience than the US.
I thought the OP was talking about an ISS-scale cooperation.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/10/science-uk-manned-mission-mars-china-usOn their return George Osborne announced in his autumn statement that Britain is setting aside £80m for an international space co-operation fund for emerging powers. China and India, which both have highly developed space programmes, will be free to apply.
Please read the article above in full.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/20/china-jade-rabbit-rover-space-politicsNASA Budget: £18bn.
CNSA : Budget: $1.3bn
ISRO : Budget: $1.3bn.
ESA : Budget: $5.5bn
RSA : Budget : $5.5bn.
JAXA : Budget: $2.5bn
Obviously, £80m anywhere else but NASA will go much further.
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#18
by
Lar
on 21 Dec, 2013 18:08
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nobody here is interested in creating the POLL or just tell me how to do that (although I'm afraid you need to be full member)?
I can create a poll if no one else does, but I'd like to see it be more than just a yes no... what are the possible alternatives? Here are some I came up with
- No collaboration or cooperation of any sort other than what is required by international law (NOTAMs and the like)
- Sharing research results after the fact (modify ITAR as required in every case from here down)
- Access to the DSN for Chinese scientific missions plus the above
- Flying experiments on each other's vehicles plus the above
- Launching craft on each other's vehicles plus the above
- Invite the Chinese to be an ISS partner (if ESA and other parties agree) plus the above
- Plan the ISS followon to incorporate the Chinese plus the above
- Allow private firms to plan future commercial (ISRU and resource extraction) joint ventures with the Chinese
Problem is that this doesn't seem like it's suitable to a single choice poll, many of the options are complimentary and after a while it's too much piling on to go with "plus the above" each time
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#19
by
savuporo
on 21 Dec, 2013 18:10
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Problem is that this doesn't seem like it's suitable to a single choice poll, many of the options are complimentary and after a while it's too much piling on to go with "plus the above" each time
You can make it a a) zero collaboration - current state of affairs b) some, carefully following existing ITAR c) relaxing ITAR and open collaboration across future missions d) full on major joint venture of some sort