Author Topic: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?  (Read 10726 times)

Offline Ike17055

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Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« on: 12/13/2013 02:54 PM »
How do its capabilities compare to the old ISS-centered Orion Lite concept? If they are similar, why would NASA not have encouraged a more integrated or complementary "Orion lite for LEO/ Orion Heavy for BLEO" strategy.  Would this have provided any efficiencies in terms of development path for both?

Offline arachnitect

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #1 on: 12/13/2013 06:45 PM »
Orion/MPCV is LockMart/NASA. CST is all Boeing (and ULA).

BEO and LEO crew programs are now separate. Countless words are available on why that is and whether it should be that way.

At this point the spacecraft are actually pretty different. Different sizes. CST-100 service module is optimized for ISS runs and would require significant modifications (effectively all new) for BEO. Changing the service module would then mean changes for the abort system, which has launch vehicle implications, and so on.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #2 on: 12/13/2013 07:28 PM »
...
BEO and LEO crew programs are now separate....
Citation needed.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline arachnitect

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #3 on: 12/13/2013 07:43 PM »
...
BEO and LEO crew programs are now separate....
Citation needed.

As opposed to the days of Constellation.

For the purposes of OP question, Orion and CST live in different worlds.*

http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/130114_heomd_org.pdf


*there was some talk at one point about whether or not LockMart could build a Comm. Crew bid around Orion. I don't remember what the conclusion was, but even if it's possible it doesn't look like it's happening. The closest we got was probably ATK's proposal.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #4 on: 12/13/2013 07:45 PM »
...
BEO and LEO crew programs are now separate....
Citation needed.

As opposed to the days of Constellation.

For the purposes of OP question, Orion and CST live in different worlds.*

http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/130114_heomd_org.pdf


*there was some talk at one point about whether or not LockMart could build a Comm. Crew bid around Orion. I don't remember what the conclusion was, but even if it's possible it doesn't look like it's happening. The closest we got was probably ATK's proposal.
Still doesn't support your strong statement that BEO and LEO are now separate, as if LEO capabilities of the BEO Orion are irrelevant as are the BEO capabilities of LEO capsules.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline yg1968

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #5 on: 12/13/2013 07:49 PM »
I think Robotbeat is objecting because it is not yet clear if commercial crew companies will have a role to play or not in BEO exploration. Gerst has mentionned that he believes that there will be a need for commercial cargo for BEO exploration but he has yet to say the same thing for commercial crew.
« Last Edit: 12/13/2013 07:55 PM by yg1968 »

Offline newpylong

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« Last Edit: 12/16/2013 02:36 PM by newpylong »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #7 on: 12/16/2013 04:01 PM »
The FY2013 presentation that you linked doesn't actually say that. Commercial crew is for transportation to the ISS. SLS and MPCV are for BEO exploration but there is nothing preventing Orion from doing LEO missions and commercial crew from doing BEO exploration missions.  Although, I admit that I would be very surprised to see either of these scenarios happen.

Offline newpylong

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #8 on: 12/16/2013 07:56 PM »
Of course it doesn't say that, nothing is going to explicitly say a square peg can't go in a round hole if hit hard enough - I was providing a source that the programs are different., which is what was originally stated.

Offline erioladastra

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #9 on: 12/19/2013 08:47 PM »
The FY2013 presentation that you linked doesn't actually say that. Commercial crew is for transportation to the ISS. SLS and MPCV are for BEO exploration but there is nothing preventing Orion from doing LEO missions and commercial crew from doing BEO exploration missions.  Although, I admit that I would be very surprised to see either of these scenarios happen.

By statute passed by COngress, Orion cannot go to LEO.  Can only go to ISS if commercial crew fails.

Offline CNYMike

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #10 on: 12/19/2013 10:51 PM »
By statute passed by COngress, Orion cannot go to LEO...

I knew the programs were separated, although I didn't know the statute was involved.  But I had been wondering if would be a good idea to have a manned Orion test flight before the asteroid heist.  If they did that, it would have to go BEO.  Interesting wrinkle.
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Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #11 on: 12/19/2013 11:19 PM »
The FY2013 presentation that you linked doesn't actually say that. Commercial crew is for transportation to the ISS. SLS and MPCV are for BEO exploration but there is nothing preventing Orion from doing LEO missions and commercial crew from doing BEO exploration missions.  Although, I admit that I would be very surprised to see either of these scenarios happen.

By statute passed by COngress, Orion cannot go to LEO.  Can only go to ISS if commercial crew fails.
Well, from what I understand it is - in its current form- not equipped to dock with the ISS anyway.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #12 on: 12/19/2013 11:46 PM »
The FY2013 presentation that you linked doesn't actually say that. Commercial crew is for transportation to the ISS. SLS and MPCV are for BEO exploration but there is nothing preventing Orion from doing LEO missions and commercial crew from doing BEO exploration missions.  Although, I admit that I would be very surprised to see either of these scenarios happen.

By statute passed by COngress, Orion cannot go to LEO.  Can only go to ISS if commercial crew fails.
Well, from what I understand it is - in its current form- not equipped to dock with the ISS anyway.

Why not? Yes, (i)LIDS is cancelled, but I think it is pretty clear that early Orion flights end up using whatever will be used for ISS/Commercial crew - SIMAC.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #13 on: 12/20/2013 12:47 AM »
The FY2013 presentation that you linked doesn't actually say that. Commercial crew is for transportation to the ISS. SLS and MPCV are for BEO exploration but there is nothing preventing Orion from doing LEO missions and commercial crew from doing BEO exploration missions.  Although, I admit that I would be very surprised to see either of these scenarios happen.

By statute passed by Congress, Orion cannot go to LEO.  Can only go to ISS if commercial crew fails.

You forced me to look it up. According to the 2010 NASA Authorization Act, MPCV is allowed to have a test flight to the ISS but that is it. As you mentionned, crew and cargo transportation to the ISS is reserved for commercial crew or international partners (i.e., Russia).

There is nothing preventing SLS and MPCV from going to LEO (other than at the ISS). Commercial  crew and cargo aren't prevented from going to BEO. But the Act is silent on these last two possibilities.

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/649377main_PL_111-267.pdf
« Last Edit: 12/20/2013 03:29 PM by yg1968 »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #14 on: 12/20/2013 05:04 AM »
The FY2013 presentation that you linked doesn't actually say that. Commercial crew is for transportation to the ISS. SLS and MPCV are for BEO exploration but there is nothing preventing Orion from doing LEO missions and commercial crew from doing BEO exploration missions.  Although, I admit that I would be very surprised to see either of these scenarios happen.

By statute passed by Congress, Orion cannot go to LEO.  Can only go to ISS if commercial crew fails.

You forced me to look it up. According to the 2010 NASA Authorization Act, MPCV is allowed to have a test flight to the ISS but that is it. As you mentionned, crew and cargo transportation to the ISS is reserved for commercial crew or international partners (i.e., Russia).

There is nothing preventing SLS and MPCV from going to LEO (other than at the ISS). Commercial  crew and cargo aren't prevented from going to BEO. But the Act is silent on these two last possibilities.

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/649377main_PL_111-267.pdf
Indeed, and isn't Orion still on the books as a backup to commercial crew for ISS?

It's a myth that the two are absolutely segregated.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline newpylong

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #15 on: 12/20/2013 02:14 PM »
The FY2013 presentation that you linked doesn't actually say that. Commercial crew is for transportation to the ISS. SLS and MPCV are for BEO exploration but there is nothing preventing Orion from doing LEO missions and commercial crew from doing BEO exploration missions.  Although, I admit that I would be very surprised to see either of these scenarios happen.

By statute passed by COngress, Orion cannot go to LEO.  Can only go to ISS if commercial crew fails.
Well, from what I understand it is - in its current form- not equipped to dock with the ISS anyway.

Neither is a crewed Dragon until the NDS is installed. It's supposed to go up on a CRS flight in the trunk. Orion will use the NDS/IDS same as the Commercial Crew side.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #16 on: 12/20/2013 03:12 PM »
Neither is a crewed Dragon until the NDS is installed. It's supposed to go up on a CRS flight in the trunk. Orion will use the NDS/IDS same as the Commercial Crew side.
I always thought the whole "Orion as backup for commercial crew" was a myth used by certain politicians to justify their policy towards commercial crew and SLS. I mean after all, the SLS is not going to fly crew any time soon, maybe not even before the ISS is scheduled to be decommissioned (unless it is extended to 2028).

Offline yg1968

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #17 on: 12/20/2013 03:27 PM »
The FY2013 presentation that you linked doesn't actually say that. Commercial crew is for transportation to the ISS. SLS and MPCV are for BEO exploration but there is nothing preventing Orion from doing LEO missions and commercial crew from doing BEO exploration missions.  Although, I admit that I would be very surprised to see either of these scenarios happen.

By statute passed by Congress, Orion cannot go to LEO.  Can only go to ISS if commercial crew fails.

You forced me to look it up. According to the 2010 NASA Authorization Act, MPCV is allowed to have a test flight to the ISS but that is it. As you mentionned, crew and cargo transportation to the ISS is reserved for commercial crew or international partners (i.e., Russia).

There is nothing preventing SLS and MPCV from going to LEO (other than at the ISS). Commercial  crew and cargo aren't prevented from going to BEO. But the Act is silent on these two last possibilities.

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/649377main_PL_111-267.pdf
Indeed, and isn't Orion still on the books as a backup to commercial crew for ISS?

It's a myth that the two are absolutely segregated.

Yes MPCV/SLS are the backup for ISS but only if transportation from commercial crew companies or by an international partner (i.e., Russia) is unavailable (which seems unlikely).
« Last Edit: 12/20/2013 03:27 PM by yg1968 »

Offline manboy

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #18 on: 12/20/2013 03:28 PM »
The FY2013 presentation that you linked doesn't actually say that. Commercial crew is for transportation to the ISS. SLS and MPCV are for BEO exploration but there is nothing preventing Orion from doing LEO missions and commercial crew from doing BEO exploration missions.  Although, I admit that I would be very surprised to see either of these scenarios happen.

By statute passed by COngress, Orion cannot go to LEO.  Can only go to ISS if commercial crew fails.
Well, from what I understand it is - in its current form- not equipped to dock with the ISS anyway.

Why not? Yes, (i)LIDS is cancelled, but I think it is pretty clear that early Orion flights end up using whatever will be used for ISS/Commercial crew - SIMAC.
I am going to try to clear up some confusion here.

The NASA Docking System (NDS)/International Low Impact Docking System (iLIDS) wasn't cancelled it just underwent a major redesign. The redesign was initially called SIMAC but now it's only referred to as NDS. The International Docking System Standard (IDSS) underwent a similar redesign.

Two International Docking Adapters (IDA) are going to be added to the ISS to convert APAS (the system the Space Shuttle used) to NDS. NDS is planned to be used by Commercial Crew and Orion.

I have some renderings of the current version of NDS but I'm unsure if I can post them. But what I will post is an image that shows the difference between the IDSS revisions (which NDS is compatible with).
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Is CST-100 basically "orion lite"?
« Reply #19 on: 12/20/2013 04:21 PM »
Thanks for clearing that up. :)

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