Author Topic: New principle of combustion offers potential to double efficiency of Engines  (Read 9462 times)

Offline RigelFive

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Uhhh.  I've heard about the VW Passat having 75+ mpg.  Rumor is they are made in Tennessee, sold in Europe, but banned in the USA due to over-regulation/US potentially losing all domestic car sales.

http://m.autoblog.com/2013/06/24/vw-passat-tdi-sets-77-9-mpg-fuel-economy-record-through-lower-48/

What the article linked to actually says is the 77.9 mpg figure was a stunt that was done by a specialist driver who used special driving techniques on a trip that touched all of the lower 48 states.

This is called "hypermiling".  By driving very carefully at particular speeds on carefully chosen roads, you can get much better gas mileage than any person would in the real world.  I don't know about the Passat, but in the Prius, hypermilers drive around 35 mph to maximize fuel economy.  If you want to drive faster, you get much lower fuel economy.  If you want to drive slower, you get much lower fuel economy.  If you start and stop, you get much lower fuel economy.

It claims this is a record.  But only compared to others who have tried driving around to all 48 of the lower 48 states with the specific goal of keeping fuel efficiency high.  How many other cars has that even been tried with?  Nothing in this article says.

And the article also qualifies the record, saying it's in the category of "non-hybrid car".  In other words, all the dozens of high-mileage hybrid vehicles are excluded from the category.

It sounds like a meaningless PR stunt by Volkswagen to me.

There's nothing in the linked article to suggest the conspiracy theory you claim as a "rumor", that the U.S. banned this car out of fear it would take away all domestic auto sales.

In fact, the Passat TDI that the article is about made its 77.9 mpg trip through the United States!  Doesn't that prove pretty conclusively it wasn't banned by the U.S.?

Anyway, a quick check of the website of my local Volkswagen dealer shows the Passat TDI offered for sale there -- with 0% APR for 60 months, no less.  So much for the "banned in the U.S." nonsense.

http://www.stevenscreekvw.com/AboutSpecials_D?p=2013-vw-jetta-passat-tdi-form&cs:e=g&cs:gn=s&cs:cid=37533564932&cs:kw=passat%20tdi&cs:p=&seg=dap&cs:tv=329&cs:a=vw_core_tdi&cs:pro=vwdapnc&cs:ki=635435428

Come on, do a little checking before you post.  All it took was 2 minutes to read the article you posted to plus 10 seconds on Google to find a Passat TDI for sale in the U.S.

In the rocket engine world, there was an USAF program named IHPRHP that was to achieve a 2x performance gain in payload.

That's pretty vague -- do you have a link for that which gives a bit more information?
So what I'm saying is that there is a special 1.4L VW TDI Passat sold in Europe that is able to go 1430 miles on a tank of diesel (as demonstrated in the USA on Shell low sulfur diesel).  The link you provided was to a new 2.0L VW Passat that can achieve 795 miles on a tank of diesel.  You are correct about everyone being able to get a 2.0L VW, but the special 1.4L Passat TDI version is not accessible in the USA. 

Here is the VW press release:
http://www.media.vw.com/newsrelease.do;jsessionid=3628B5B913F3C715321DC2AA64E7EB2C?&id=1408&allImage=1&teaser=volkswagen-passat-tdi-clean-diesel-sets-world-record&mid=

If somebody wanted to totally get people infuriated (worse than mandating ObamaCare), they would mandate that everyone had to drive the 1.4L VW TDI Passat to achieve 75-80mpg.  Someone was joking on a blog that they rented one in Europe and it would redline at 3000 rpm.  There was no appreciable torque, so the car would be useless for getting up a hill in San Francisco.   The 1.4L Passat goes ZERO to 60 mph in 10.5 seconds (WITH A &%*$%*%&$ TURBO!). 

The Nissan Leaf will SMOKE the 1.4L TDI Passat off the line in a 0-60 drag race.

So I think we can likely agree that PERFORMANCE and EFFICIENCY are not likely to be seen at the prom together...

Online ChrisWilson68

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Uhhh.  I've heard about the VW Passat having 75+ mpg.  Rumor is they are made in Tennessee, sold in Europe, but banned in the USA due to over-regulation/US potentially losing all domestic car sales.

http://m.autoblog.com/2013/06/24/vw-passat-tdi-sets-77-9-mpg-fuel-economy-record-through-lower-48/

What the article linked to actually says is the 77.9 mpg figure was a stunt that was done by a specialist driver who used special driving techniques on a trip that touched all of the lower 48 states.

This is called "hypermiling".  By driving very carefully at particular speeds on carefully chosen roads, you can get much better gas mileage than any person would in the real world.  I don't know about the Passat, but in the Prius, hypermilers drive around 35 mph to maximize fuel economy.  If you want to drive faster, you get much lower fuel economy.  If you want to drive slower, you get much lower fuel economy.  If you start and stop, you get much lower fuel economy.

It claims this is a record.  But only compared to others who have tried driving around to all 48 of the lower 48 states with the specific goal of keeping fuel efficiency high.  How many other cars has that even been tried with?  Nothing in this article says.

And the article also qualifies the record, saying it's in the category of "non-hybrid car".  In other words, all the dozens of high-mileage hybrid vehicles are excluded from the category.

It sounds like a meaningless PR stunt by Volkswagen to me.

There's nothing in the linked article to suggest the conspiracy theory you claim as a "rumor", that the U.S. banned this car out of fear it would take away all domestic auto sales.

In fact, the Passat TDI that the article is about made its 77.9 mpg trip through the United States!  Doesn't that prove pretty conclusively it wasn't banned by the U.S.?

Anyway, a quick check of the website of my local Volkswagen dealer shows the Passat TDI offered for sale there -- with 0% APR for 60 months, no less.  So much for the "banned in the U.S." nonsense.

http://www.stevenscreekvw.com/AboutSpecials_D?p=2013-vw-jetta-passat-tdi-form&cs:e=g&cs:gn=s&cs:cid=37533564932&cs:kw=passat%20tdi&cs:p=&seg=dap&cs:tv=329&cs:a=vw_core_tdi&cs:pro=vwdapnc&cs:ki=635435428

Come on, do a little checking before you post.  All it took was 2 minutes to read the article you posted to plus 10 seconds on Google to find a Passat TDI for sale in the U.S.

In the rocket engine world, there was an USAF program named IHPRHP that was to achieve a 2x performance gain in payload.

That's pretty vague -- do you have a link for that which gives a bit more information?
So what I'm saying is that there is a special 1.4L VW TDI Passat sold in Europe that is able to go 1430 miles on a tank of diesel (as demonstrated in the USA on Shell low sulfur diesel).  The link you provided was to a new 2.0L VW Passat that can achieve 795 miles on a tank of diesel.  You are correct about everyone being able to get a 2.0L VW, but the special 1.4L Passat TDI version is not accessible in the USA. 

Here is the VW press release:
http://www.media.vw.com/newsrelease.do;jsessionid=3628B5B913F3C715321DC2AA64E7EB2C?&id=1408&allImage=1&teaser=volkswagen-passat-tdi-clean-diesel-sets-world-record&mid=

If somebody wanted to totally get people infuriated (worse than mandating ObamaCare), they would mandate that everyone had to drive the 1.4L VW TDI Passat to achieve 75-80mpg.  Someone was joking on a blog that they rented one in Europe and it would redline at 3000 rpm.  There was no appreciable torque, so the car would be useless for getting up a hill in San Francisco.   The 1.4L Passat goes ZERO to 60 mph in 10.5 seconds (WITH A &%*$%*%&$ TURBO!). 

The Nissan Leaf will SMOKE the 1.4L TDI Passat off the line in a 0-60 drag race.

So I think we can likely agree that PERFORMANCE and EFFICIENCY are not likely to be seen at the prom together...

That's interesting.  Hopefully we can agree that the reason the 1.4L TDI is available in Europe and not the U.S. is because VW thought it would sell better there than in the U.S., not that it was banned in the U.S. :-)

Offline RigelFive

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There is an emission standard in the USA that keeps the high mpg engine from being sold.  The compression ratio for best fuel economy does not generate the best emissions when the analysis considers grams of CO2/fuel volume.  If they simply considered less fuel is consumed, there would not be any need for this ban.  But if you consider less fuel being sold, less tax revenue generated, a major impact to US car sales; then you can see the motivations to NOT have them sold in the USA.

Rather than marvel at efficiency, we should do the opposite.  We should marvel at performance and fuel inefficiency.

Gimme an F-1X with greater fuel consumption!!!  Have to add weight to increase the performance?  AWESOME!  Line the combustion chamber in deep fried beer batter and bacon.  Then we can do this!

« Last Edit: 12/03/2013 01:21 PM by RigelFive »

Offline IRobot

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The Nissan Leaf will SMOKE the 1.4L TDI Passat off the line in a 0-60 drag race.

So I think we can likely agree that PERFORMANCE and EFFICIENCY are not likely to be seen at the prom together...
The Mercedes C220 CDI will do 57 mpg, top speed of 232km/h and 0-60mph in 8.4s. Unfortunately it does not seem to be sold in the US.

Offline avollhar

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So I think we can likely agree that PERFORMANCE and EFFICIENCY are not likely to be seen at the prom together...

Not Diesel, but Performance and efficiency CAN go together :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i8

75.1 mpg and 362 bhp combined electric+gasoline (of course not at the same time). Going on sale in the US 2014/2015.

I'll take its smaller sister (BMW i3) for a spin next month  ;D




Online ChrisWilson68

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Is that sound I hear the last tenuous link to space flight snapping?

Offline RigelFive

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Ok.  I'm trying to get into Professor Naitoh's articles/press releases.  There really are no details as to how this increase in efficiency / performance are brought into practice.  I'd just assume that the work is valid and give the group full credit.

However, the pictures of the engine being tested really don't appear ready to replace a Lycoming IO-540 just yet. 


Offline JohnFornaro

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so there are no diesel fueled rockets because ....................... ?

.... uhhhh... because kerosene is better?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline RigelFive

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so there are no diesel fueled rockets because ....................... ?

.... uhhhh... because kerosene is better?
Forget diesel and kerosene, RP-1 is the fuel for rockets.  Kerosene has all of the extra *stuff* for corrosion prevention/ice/fungus/etc.  Makes me cringe thinking of what people are breathing with kerosene heaters these days.

Online ChrisWilson68

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so there are no diesel fueled rockets because ....................... ?

.... uhhhh... because kerosene is better?
Forget diesel and kerosene, RP-1 is the fuel for rockets.  Kerosene has all of the extra *stuff* for corrosion prevention/ice/fungus/etc.  Makes me cringe thinking of what people are breathing with kerosene heaters these days.

When people talk about Kerosene with respect to rockets, they mean RP-1.

Kerosene is a broad term that encompasses several very similar grades of fuel.  RP-1 is a specific type of Kerosene.

Offline cordwainer

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I wonder if a micro-rockets could be used to ignite the fuel flow inside a larger rockets ignition chamber? Or be used to make more efficient gas regenerators for powering fuel pumps?

Monopropellant rockets using catalysts or a heating element would ignite a larger stream of fuel inside a reaction chamber could make for more efficient burning of fuel by creating a vortex effect.

Another possibility would be to use a thermo-power wave device powered by the rockets fuel to create electrical energy, exhaust from the device could in turn be used to power a Stirling motor for further power generation.

Online ChrisWilson68

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I wonder if a micro-rockets could be used to ignite the fuel flow inside a larger rockets ignition chamber?

Why?  Just injecting TEA-TEB into the chamber seems simpler to me, and just as effective.  Micro rockets would be more complex hardware that something could go wrong with, or that could interact with the rest of the main engine after ignition was done.  It would also be more mass.

Or be used to make more efficient gas regenerators for powering fuel pumps?

How could having micro rockets possibly make the gas generators more efficient?

Monopropellant rockets using catalysts or a heating element would ignite a larger stream of fuel inside a reaction chamber could make for more efficient burning of fuel by creating a vortex effect.

I don't see how that would make anything more efficient.

Another possibility would be to use a thermo-power wave device powered by the rockets fuel to create electrical energy, exhaust from the device could in turn be used to power a Stirling motor for further power generation.

Why would you be trying to generate electricity from the rocket engines of a launch vehicle?

Offline Jim

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I wonder if a micro-rockets could be used to ignite the fuel flow inside a larger rockets ignition chamber?
Or be used to make more efficient gas regenerators for powering fuel pumps?

They already exist. Augmented spark igniters
Gas generators are by definition not efficient so as to keep the combustion temp down for the turbines.

Offline BobCarver

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Why would you be trying to generate electricity from the rocket engines of a launch vehicle?

Theoretically, you can boost the thrust of a rocket in atmosphere by several hundred percent using magnetohydrodynamic principles. See AIAA 95-4079 Rocket-Induced Magnetohydrodynamic Ejector A Single-Stage-to-Orbit Advanced Propulsion Concept.


Offline cordwainer

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As to thermopower wave I was thinking more along the lines of generating electricity for a deep space vehicle but you could use the power generation for turbo-pumps in a launch vehicle. For a replacement to conventional gas turbine generators or regenerators such a device might actually save weight and decrease complexity though.

 The micro-rocket combustion chamber injection idea though would require larger more complex micro-rockets that would definitely add weight. Might be useful in an air-breathing design though.

Offline llanitedave

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None of this holds a candle to the celebrated turbo encabulator!


« Last Edit: 12/14/2013 07:54 AM by llanitedave »
"I've just abducted an alien -- now what?"

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