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#180
by
sdsds
on 20 Jul, 2014 23:39
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In some manufacturing situations it is possible to "dual source" a component. The manufacturer has two suppliers, each of which is qualified to provide parts which meet the specification.
Is there any possibility Orbital/ATK will dual-source Antares engines? Rather than placing an order of (say) 16 engines from a single supplier, could they order 8 engines from each of two suppliers?
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#181
by
Antares
on 21 Jul, 2014 03:57
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How close would the specs be on those two sources? Thrust and Isp would have to be within spitting distance of each other or else the integration gets complicated. Thrust within 10%, Isp within 3%, and similar induced environments. Right now there are obviously not two sources for any rocket engine.
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#182
by
Kabloona
on 21 Jul, 2014 15:44
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Furthermore, dual sourcing increases unit cost because it reduces production volume of each type of system, and increases the LV integrator's cost in systems engineering, procurement, etc, so I don't see that as an option. Pick a horse and ride it.
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#183
by
baldusi
on 21 Jul, 2014 16:28
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Btw, I would expect dual RD-193, since they already have the dual engine TVC adaptor. And I believe the RD-191 has a bleed somewhere that wouldn't be necessary here.
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#184
by
Lobo
on 22 Jul, 2014 00:09
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My handicap, based on the chatter from my sources in recent weeks, not what I thought it would've been:
Win (60%): RD-191/151
Place (30%): AR-1e6
distant Show (10%): ATK solid
Interesting.
I wonder what happens the next time there's political tensions between the US and Russia and OrbATK gets heat for launching USAF/DoD payloads (assuming they follow through with their words and go for that and get some) on Russian engines? Or some Russian politicians decide to start using deliveries as a political tool?
Seems like with everything that's been going on recently, that wouldn't be the 1st choice. But, they know far more than we do, so they must be seeing the possibility of assurances that there won't be supply problems form Russian or Ukrane (core).
I agree, that's not what I thought it would have been.
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#185
by
wannamoonbase
on 22 Jul, 2014 00:55
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If the NK-33 production doesn't get started up again, I'd put replacing the stage with an all solid vehicle in a favorite position.
ATK loves loves loves solids.
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#186
by
sdsds
on 22 Jul, 2014 02:58
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#187
by
docmordrid
on 22 Jul, 2014 03:59
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But that depends on US sanctions not being strengthened, which appears in the cards given the MH17 shoot down. Even if US sanctions don't hit the engines sector it could change Russia's calculus.
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#188
by
manboy
on 22 Jul, 2014 08:02
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#189
by
Lobo
on 22 Jul, 2014 17:56
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SAMARA, July 21 (RIA Novosti)
[...]
“At present, the sales of engines for Atlas and Antares rockets in the United States favor Russia as the profits go directly for technological modernization of [Russian] enterprises [producing the engines],” {Rogozin} said.
http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140721/191083393/Russia-to-Continue-Space-Rocket-Engines-Deliveries-to-US.html
This strongly implies an ongoing transfer of engines from Russia to the U.S. for Antares.
I guess I was under the impression that Aerojet bought up all of the NK33's found in that warehouse cache in the late 1990's. This statement implies that Russian is currently supplying NK33's to Aerojet. So now I'm confused. The Russians aren't making NK33's, so how are they currently supplying them to Aerojet?
Or did Aerojet only buy a limited number of that cashe, with the option to buy more of them, or something?
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#190
by
Space Ghost 1962
on 22 Jul, 2014 19:25
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He claims 150 total:
150 Engines That Roar I saw and counted 28. Some were NK-43's. That was like two decades ago.
I was told that 58 was the number on the deal. And that there was at least 100. Each N1 first stage required 30, the second stage required 8.
Don't know how many became NK-33A.
At least four countries and 14 vehicles desired to use them.
Watch closely the French ship case regarding sale to the Russians. It's a bellweatherer for how things may play out with any Russian LRE's. Perhaps Brazil/India/China might be markets in the future?
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#191
by
baldusi
on 22 Jul, 2014 19:26
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SAMARA, July 21 (RIA Novosti)
[...]
“At present, the sales of engines for Atlas and Antares rockets in the United States favor Russia as the profits go directly for technological modernization of [Russian] enterprises [producing the engines],” {Rogozin} said.
http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140721/191083393/Russia-to-Continue-Space-Rocket-Engines-Deliveries-to-US.html
This strongly implies an ongoing transfer of engines from Russia to the U.S. for Antares.
I guess I was under the impression that Aerojet bought up all of the NK33's found in that warehouse cache in the late 1990's. This statement implies that Russian is currently supplying NK33's to Aerojet. So now I'm confused. The Russians aren't making NK33's, so how are they currently supplying them to Aerojet?
Or did Aerojet only buy a limited number of that cache, with the option to buy more of them, or something?
I understand that they had a cache of 40 or so, and the Russians kept about a similar amount. The fact is that there were also NK43, which had the bigger extension and were air lit. So I the total amounts might have been higher.
In any case they might have been planning on selling their remaining NK-33, and moving the Soyuz-2.1v to RD-193. If they could do that, the CRS contract continuation might actually be paying for the swap. And NPO Energomash might be mutating into a full engine production company. They only produced the RD-180 and RD-171M, and only because the Zenith Project didn't went into full Soyuz replacement.
Now with the Angara's production kept in house, plus whatever they might keep selling outside, they had to install some more serious capacity.
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#192
by
Proponent
on 01 Aug, 2014 12:06
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It has been out of production for some time and converting RS-27 to a second stage engine sounds like too much work. Those additional changes will not be cost effective and yield no ROI as compared to selecting another engine that is already more closely optimized to meeting the requirements. Also, does the alternate engine need to meet current requirements or any expected requirements of future needs? Meeting current requirements has a finite date based on the current COTS contract.
And, being very old, it's not a great engine by modern standards.
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#193
by
Scylla
on 22 Aug, 2014 21:41
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All-solid Antares Would Require Changes to Wallops Pad, Safety Rules
http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/41642all-solid-antares-would-require-changes-to-wallops-pad-safety-rulesWASHINGTON — Should Orbital Sciences Corp. convert its Antares rocket into an all-solid-fuel vehicle, the company will have to overhaul its launch infrastructure on Virginia’s eastern shore and figure out how to comply with a NASA launch safety rule written to protect area bystanders from broken glass
According to two people familiar with recent discussions between Orbital and NASA, a midflight explosion of a solid-fueled rocket the size of Antares could shatter windows — and thus pose a safety risk — so far from the vehicle’s flight path that the agency would sooner prohibit its launch than undertake the effort required to evacuate buildings in the affected area.
Orbital Chief Executive David W. Thompson said recently that a decision on the future Antares first stage is imminent.
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#194
by
Space Ghost 1962
on 26 Aug, 2014 21:19
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Overpressure on flight termination makes Wallops unsuitable for all solid Antares launch.
Ups the ante for such. No surprise.
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#195
by
watermod
on 09 Sep, 2014 00:25
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Watch closely the French ship case regarding sale to the Russians. It's a bellweatherer for how things may play out with any Russian LRE's. Perhaps Brazil/India/China might be markets in the future?
http://fortune.com/2014/09/04/france-suspends-sale-of-warships-to-russia-as-putin-fails-to-convince/ France suspends sale of warships to Russia as Putin fails to convince
Unimpressed by reports of progress towards a ceasefire agreement, and by a seven-point peace plan released later Wednesday by the Kremlin, France suspended the planned delivery of a state-0f-the-art warship to Russia.
A statement on President Francois Hollande’s website said that “the recent actions by Russia in eastern Ukraine are contrary to the basic notions of security in Europe,” and said “the conditions that will allow France to authorize the delivery of the first amphibious landing ship have so far not been met.”
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#196
by
Space Ghost 1962
on 09 Sep, 2014 19:06
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Current geopolitics is about forms/means of economic competition, by (in increasing desperation):
a) effectiveness/advantage (say a EU or an eurasian economic federation)
b) coercion/intimidation/alliances/breaking agreements (because you can't obtain what you desire otherwise)
c) outright war (because you just take it anyway).
When you claim by definition that you're doing item b when by all appearances its actually images / effect / proof of item c, might you dance over the line? Since you can do too many unfair things under item c in the short term, possibly to compensate for a poor overall bargaining position over the long term, the long term risks of competition may become unstable.
A cynical ("realpolitik") view is that everything is temporary and there are no bounds at all, no limits. Afterwards, you just 'reset'. Nations have to put up with each other perpetually anyway, even if unfair. How many before none? Brinkmanship. Diplomats / military / munitions / ships / engines / ...
Relax. Nobody ever over plays. And is caught by it.
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#197
by
sdsds
on 10 Sep, 2014 02:05
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When the Antares pad was designed, was consideration given to the possibility of launching a vehicle using an RD-171 engine on a Zenit-sized first stage?
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#198
by
russianhalo117
on 11 Sep, 2014 15:17
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When the Antares pad was designed, was consideration given to the possibility of launching a vehicle using an RD-171 engine on a Zenit-sized first stage?
Well the mounting hole is round but the adaptor for the launcher is a rounded rectangle. As for other functions I'm not sure.
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#199
by
StarLifter
on 12 Sep, 2014 20:21
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