Author Topic: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program  (Read 450899 times)

Offline john smith 19

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #580 on: 05/22/2017 11:16 pm »
I just hope they pick wisely. The rumors I had been hearing six months ago on who the pick would be didn't have me very optimistic though...

~Jon
Hmm. Well they all look "sort of" viable but then on paper almost anything is possible.

Am I just being paranoid if I thought the phrase about "We might award it to someone who isn't even in the first round" a bit ominous? In Commercial Cargo & Crew it's been quite positive but then CCC kept 2 contractors on board, which turned out to be a very good move given both had launch problems.

In this situation I'm not so sure.  :(
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 2027?. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline yg1968

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #581 on: 05/23/2017 03:02 am »
New blog post:

Quote
The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) may soon award a contract for the XS-1 spaceplane.

According to Air Force Magazine, DARPA has entered the final stages of a “downselect” to choose one company to proceed into the flying phase of the spaceplane. [...]

http://www.leonarddavid.com/darpa-xs-1-spaceplane-contract-decision-near/

Another article by the same journalist:

http://www.space.com/36892-darpa-xs-1-space-plane-contract-decision.html
« Last Edit: 05/24/2017 04:59 pm by yg1968 »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #582 on: 05/23/2017 12:50 pm »
I don't know what others views are but I'd go
Masten Space Systems/XCOR Aerospace
Boeing /Blue Origin,
Northrop Grumman/ Virgin Galactic.

In terms of teams with space experience. Northrop Grumman/VG always looks odd unless you know Scaled Composites is a wholly owned Northrop subsidiary.  OTOH when it comes to playing the government contracting game I'd go

Boeing /Blue Origin,
Northrop Grumman/ Virgin Galactic.
Masten Space Systems/XCOR Aerospace

Now DARPA are saying there could be other entrants who were not in the first round.

Lockheed Martin/someone else? [EDIT IOW the people who didn't quite bring you the X33/Venturestar in the early 90's ]
« Last Edit: 05/23/2017 12:53 pm by john smith 19 »
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 2027?. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline PurduesUSAFguy

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #583 on: 05/23/2017 11:50 pm »
I'm beginning to wonder if things fell apart with the selected contractor during contract negotiations and they've had to start over negotiations with the runner up.


Offline TrevorMonty

Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #584 on: 05/24/2017 12:18 am »
I don't know what others views are but I'd go
Masten Space Systems/XCOR Aerospace
Boeing /Blue Origin,
Northrop Grumman/ Virgin Galactic.

In terms of teams with space experience. Northrop Grumman/VG always looks odd unless you know Scaled Composites is a wholly owned Northrop subsidiary.  OTOH when it comes to playing the government contracting game I'd go

Boeing /Blue Origin,
Northrop Grumman/ Virgin Galactic.
Masten Space Systems/XCOR Aerospace

Now DARPA are saying there could be other entrants who were not in the first round.

Lockheed Martin/someone else? [EDIT IOW the people who didn't quite bring you the X33/Venturestar in the early 90's ]
As with every other LV, engines are critical.
Virgin Newton 3 is operational if not flight ready yet.

Masten doesn't have tested engine yet that we know of. NB tested 25klbs Broadsword is subscale of 60klbs flight version.

Blue have proven BE3 but BE4 has yet to be tested. Not sure which engine they are going with.

My pick is Boeing/Blue if it is BE3 else NG/Virgin.

Dave Masten did talk about doing smaller RLV for smallsat market if they miss out on XS1. If so 5-7 25klbs Broadswords would be all they need.
« Last Edit: 05/24/2017 12:22 am by TrevorMonty »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #585 on: 05/24/2017 09:01 am »
As with every other LV, engines are critical.
Virgin Newton 3 is operational if not flight ready yet.

Masten doesn't have tested engine yet that we know of. NB tested 25klbs Broadsword is subscale of 60klbs flight version.

Blue have proven BE3 but BE4 has yet to be tested. Not sure which engine they are going with.

My pick is Boeing/Blue if it is BE3 else NG/Virgin.

Dave Masten did talk about doing smaller RLV for smallsat market if they miss out on XS1. If so 5-7 25klbs Broadswords would be all they need.
Good point. I'd forgotten Jess Sponable's comments about they wanted a near term solution and that excluded an engine development programme. I think Jon Goff mentioned the S.Korean RP1/LOX engine might have been a candidate for this because it was available now.

XCOR have done work on reciprocating pumps for upper stage use but I think they are still too small for this task. However let's not forget clustering as an option and XCOR's in reliable engine design for the Rocket Racing League.  The idea may have fallen through but they accumulated a lot of knowledge about what works and what doesn't in terms of reliable engine design.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 2027?. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #586 on: 05/24/2017 09:05 am »
I'm beginning to wonder if things fell apart with the selected contractor during contract negotiations and they've had to start over negotiations with the runner up.
Sadly possible.  :(

OTOH it could just be that the hold process following the Presidential election (I did not know that something at this level would come to a halt pending the winner's transition team looking over it  :( ) has lasted longer than expected as it's just not a priority on the Administration radar.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 2027?. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Star One

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #587 on: 05/24/2017 10:24 am »
I'm beginning to wonder if things fell apart with the selected contractor during contract negotiations and they've had to start over negotiations with the runner up.
Sadly possible.  :(

OTOH it could just be that the hold process following the Presidential election (I did not know that something at this level would come to a halt pending the winner's transition team looking over it  :( ) has lasted longer than expected as it's just not a priority on the Administration radar.

That's been the consensus elsewhere that I've read that the delay was due to the change in administration.

Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #588 on: 05/24/2017 03:11 pm »
https://twitter.com/DARPA/status/867396785395912704

DARPA has picked a design for its Experimental Spaceplane (XS-1) and awarded Phases 2 & 3 of the program to @Boeing

http://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2017-05-24

Edit: XS-1 Concept video

While I have not followed this program super closely, I did not know they were going for an AR-22 for propulsion. Thoughts?

 
« Last Edit: 05/24/2017 03:19 pm by tvg98 »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #589 on: 05/24/2017 03:28 pm »
While I have not followed this program super closely, I did not know they were going for an AR-22 for propulsion. Thoughts?

This makes it even more interesting:

Quote
Jeff Foust‏ @jeff_foust 11m11 minutes ago

Interesting that Boeing’s vehicle will be powered by an Aerojet Rocketdyne engine; Boeing had partnered with Blue Origin on XS-1 Phase 1.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/867398825408909313

Offline AncientU

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #590 on: 05/24/2017 03:33 pm »
Presser:
Quote
Boeing will develop an autonomous, reusable spaceplane capable of carrying and deploying a small expendable upper stage to launch small (3,000 pound/1,361 kg) satellites into low Earth orbit. Boeing and DARPA will jointly invest in the development.

Once the spaceplane – called Phantom Express – reaches the edge of space, it would deploy the second stage and return to Earth. It would then land on a runway to be prepared for its next flight by applying operation and maintenance principles similar to modern aircraft.

“Phantom Express is designed to disrupt and transform the satellite launch process as we know it today, creating a new, on-demand space-launch capability that can be achieved more affordably and with less risk,” said Darryl Davis, president, Boeing Phantom Works.

The Aerojet Rocketdyne AR-22 engine, a version of the legacy Space Shuttle main engine, would power the spaceplane. It is designed to be reusable and operates using liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen fuel.
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-05-24-Boeing-DARPA-to-Design-Build-Test-New-Experimental-Spaceplane
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Offline BrightLight

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #591 on: 05/24/2017 03:43 pm »
Here is the minimal architecture VTHL launch pad for the proposed spaceplane.  The main engine is LOX/hydrogen but will toxic chemicals requiring suited ground crew be required for handling after the ship has landed?

Offline strangequark

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #592 on: 05/24/2017 03:45 pm »
While I have not followed this program super closely, I did not know they were going for an AR-22 for propulsion. Thoughts?

This makes it even more interesting:

Quote
Jeff Foust‏ @jeff_foust 11m11 minutes ago

Interesting that Boeing’s vehicle will be powered by an Aerojet Rocketdyne engine; Boeing had partnered with Blue Origin on XS-1 Phase 1.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/867398825408909313

Not really. The media applied way too much Kremlinology in weighing the significance of the subcontractor partnerships.

Offline AncientU

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #593 on: 05/24/2017 03:51 pm »
AJR Presser:
Quote
Aerojet Rocketdyne, a subsidiary of Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings, Inc. (NYSE:AJRD), was selected to provide the main propulsion for the Boeing and the U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) reusable Experimental Spaceplane (XS-1). Aerojet Rocketdyne is a member of the Boeing team that recently announced an agreement to collaborate with DARPA to design, build and test a technology demonstrator for the agency's XS-1 program.

The reusable experimental spaceplane is designed to deliver small satellites into orbit with high launch responsiveness. The main propulsion is based on the legacy space shuttle main engines (SSME).

"As one of the world's most reliable rocket engines, the SSME is a smart choice to power the XS-1 launch vehicle," said Aerojet Rocketdyne CEO and President Eileen Drake. "This engine has a demonstrated track record of solid performance and proven reusability."

For the XS-1 program, Aerojet Rocketdyne is providing two engines with legacy shuttle flight experience to demonstrate reusability, a wide operating range and rapid turnarounds. These engines will be designated as AR-22 engines and will be assembled from parts that remained in both Aerojet Rocketdyne and NASA inventories from early versions of the SSME engines. Assembly and ground testing will take place at NASA's Stennis Space Center in Mississippi.
http://spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=50920

How can this be a good idea?
« Last Edit: 05/24/2017 03:53 pm by AncientU »
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
-- SpaceX friend of mlindner

Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #594 on: 05/24/2017 03:56 pm »
AJR Presser:
Quote
Aerojet Rocketdyne, a subsidiary of Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings, Inc. (NYSE:AJRD), was selected to provide the main propulsion for the Boeing and the U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) reusable Experimental Spaceplane (XS-1). Aerojet Rocketdyne is a member of the Boeing team that recently announced an agreement to collaborate with DARPA to design, build and test a technology demonstrator for the agency's XS-1 program.

The reusable experimental spaceplane is designed to deliver small satellites into orbit with high launch responsiveness. The main propulsion is based on the legacy space shuttle main engines (SSME).

"As one of the world's most reliable rocket engines, the SSME is a smart choice to power the XS-1 launch vehicle," said Aerojet Rocketdyne CEO and President Eileen Drake. "This engine has a demonstrated track record of solid performance and proven reusability."

For the XS-1 program, Aerojet Rocketdyne is providing two engines with legacy shuttle flight experience to demonstrate reusability, a wide operating range and rapid turnarounds. These engines will be designated as AR-22 engines and will be assembled from parts that remained in both Aerojet Rocketdyne and NASA inventories from early versions of the SSME engines. Assembly and ground testing will take place at NASA's Stennis Space Center in Mississippi.
http://spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=50920

How can this be a good idea?

Also, while the SSME has been quite reliable, has it ever been reused quickly or cheaply? These goals are starting to sound a bit optimistic for my taste.

Offline gongora

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #595 on: 05/24/2017 04:03 pm »
The main engine is LOX/hydrogen but will toxic chemicals requiring suited ground crew be required for handling after the ship has landed?

Don't see why a suborbital aircraft would have on-orbit maneuvering thrusters, so probably not.

Offline envy887

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #596 on: 05/24/2017 04:05 pm »
While I have not followed this program super closely, I did not know they were going for an AR-22 for propulsion. Thoughts?

This makes it even more interesting:

Quote
Jeff Foust‏ @jeff_foust 11m11 minutes ago

Interesting that Boeing’s vehicle will be powered by an Aerojet Rocketdyne engine; Boeing had partnered with Blue Origin on XS-1 Phase 1.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/867398825408909313

I can't find any more details on the AR-22 with a quick search... but a SSME seems like overkill for this launcher. Even with extremely conservative dry mass ratios (~20%) a single SSME can push a Centaur to Mach 10, which would put over 10,000 lbm to a 500 km polar orbit.

Any ideas what upper stage they are looking at? Something sized in between Delta K and STAR-48 seems appropriate.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #597 on: 05/24/2017 04:07 pm »
I'm disappointed they picked Boeing (and AR), but not surprised.

But if they wanted some results? How can you expect better food with the same chefs in the kitchen? (or however the saying goes) :)  But perhaps they will actually deliver something this time.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #598 on: 05/24/2017 04:09 pm »
AJR Presser:
Quote
...
For the XS-1 program, Aerojet Rocketdyne is providing two engines with legacy shuttle flight experience to demonstrate reusability, a wide operating range and rapid turnarounds. These engines will be designated as AR-22 engines and will be assembled from parts that remained in both Aerojet Rocketdyne and NASA inventories from early versions of the SSME engines. Assembly and ground testing will take place at NASA's Stennis Space Center in Mississippi.
http://spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=50920

How can this be a good idea?

Never change AR, never change...  :o ;D Geez. Is AR allergic to long term thinking?
« Last Edit: 05/24/2017 04:11 pm by Lars-J »

Offline envy887

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Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #599 on: 05/24/2017 04:14 pm »
The main engine is LOX/hydrogen but will toxic chemicals requiring suited ground crew be required for handling after the ship has landed?

Don't see why a suborbital aircraft would have on-orbit maneuvering thrusters, so probably not.

With a SSME not capable of restarting for boostback, they will have to land downrange... so it can't fly out of VAFB to polar orbits? Where would this launch?

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