Author Topic: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation  (Read 7320 times)

Offline zt

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Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« on: 08/31/2013 04:09 PM »
http://www.tethers.com/papers/SpiderFab_SpringNIAC_v6.pdf

I didn't find it in a search. What do you think about it? I am not knowledgeable enough to tell if it's even possible.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #1 on: 09/01/2013 12:25 AM »
I, for one, welcome our new arachnoid overloads.
 
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline LegendCJS

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #2 on: 09/01/2013 12:44 AM »
Exciting stuff.  I would think a flight test/ tech demonstrator in the near term could be made feasible and practical if it incorporated the dextre manipulator and its two 7 dof arms already in orbit.  In my opinion the global metrology system is going to be the hardest part to get right, but if the whole flight test package was put on an external pallet, the metrology measurement head could remain on the pallet at some ~10m remove from the work site where dextre would use the remainder of the tools to test out all the important bits, as measured and guided by feedback from the metrology head.
Remember: if we want this whole space thing to work out we have to optimize for cost!

Offline Prober

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« Last Edit: 10/08/2013 01:07 PM by Prober »
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Offline a_langwich

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #4 on: 10/08/2013 01:56 AM »
Exciting stuff.  I would think a flight test/ tech demonstrator in the near term could be made feasible and practical if it incorporated the dextre manipulator and its two 7 dof arms already in orbit.  In my opinion the global metrology system is going to be the hardest part to get right, but if the whole flight test package was put on an external pallet, the metrology measurement head could remain on the pallet at some ~10m remove from the work site where dextre would use the remainder of the tools to test out all the important bits, as measured and guided by feedback from the metrology head.

I agree that the metrology system will be tough, as well as consistently positioning a free-floating (or attached to a swaying truss) 3D print head to lay down the material at the precise location needed.  But a great idea, especially for big NASA-sized projects.   Observatory, and perhaps even habitat, frameworks.  And I agree, too, that this seems like a fantastic concept to send to the ISS for prototyping and further development work.  Space-based construction research is EXACTLY where a space station is useful. 

It's an extremely marketable type of research, where you can invoke images of giant observatories, or giant future habitats, or giant assemblies for future planetary missions.  Every kid can see the robotic lego constructor and instantly envision the possibilities. 

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #5 on: 10/08/2013 11:18 AM »
I agree that the metrology system will be tough, as well as consistently positioning a free-floating (or attached to a swaying truss) 3D print head to lay down the material at the precise location needed.  But a great idea, especially for big NASA-sized projects.   Observatory, and perhaps even habitat, frameworks.  And I agree, too, that this seems like a fantastic concept to send to the ISS for prototyping and further development work.  Space-based construction research is EXACTLY where a space station is useful. 
I was reading on another thread about why if you want to go to Mars you still want an HLV, because then you can get decent sized reusable heatshield. But I wonder if this technology can solve that problem too.

It's surprising when you start investigating how many things in space get a lot easier if you can build them in space without having to worry about launch loads and unfolding mechanisms.

So far I've got solar concentrators, radio wave concentrators (IE space radio telescope), sun shields or shades, and I think radiators and heat shields might be possible as well. Big radiators could be important for both crewed vehicles but also for any decent sized space nuclear reactor project.

I won't call this a "game changer," but I would say it's a "force multiplier." Something that magnifies existing (but expensive and complex) capabilities enormously, making them much cheaper and simple to apply.  :)
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline grondilu

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #6 on: 10/09/2013 10:16 AM »
Nice concept.  It could work, but this is very advanced robotics.
Space is pretty much literally an astronomically-high hanging fruit.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #7 on: 10/10/2013 02:11 PM »
Nice concept.  It could work, but this is very advanced robotics.
Well it is the NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts  :)

This is exactly the sort of high risk/high payoff research that NASA should fund this way.

But you're right. I think we take gravity so much for granted it's (almost) impossible to realize how much harder some things get without it.

Getting it to work will not be easy but what a payoff. The upside is huge  :)
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Tass

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #8 on: 10/10/2013 05:37 PM »
Nice concept.  It could work, but this is very advanced robotics.
Well it is the NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts  :)

This is exactly the sort of high risk/high payoff research that NASA should fund this way.

But you're right. I think we take gravity so much for granted it's (almost) impossible to realize how much harder some things get without it.

Getting it to work will not be easy but what a payoff. The upside is huge  :)

Yes. But I would argue we also take gravity so much for granted that it is almost impossible to realize how much easier certain things could become without it.

The trouble is we have tons of experience with gravity, and next to none without it.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #9 on: 10/10/2013 08:53 PM »
Yes. But I would argue we also take gravity so much for granted that it is almost impossible to realize how much easier certain things could become without it.

The trouble is we have tons of experience with gravity, and next to none without it.
I wouldn't go quite that far. There is a fair bit of information (in the NASA "Space Mechanisms" Conference Preceedings for example made fascinating reading  :) so probably no longer on the NASA website  :( ).

Applying that information (and planning for the "unknown unknowns" so the project does not grind to a halt) is what makes this tricky.

I'll note the #1  cause of mechanical orbital trouble hinges round friction in bearings and joints, and this system will have a lot of those.  :(
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Online TrevorMonty

Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #10 on: 03/05/2015 12:07 AM »
FISO teleconference.
Trusselator maybe ready for space demo in 2016. Last slide has some interesting near term applications. I can imagine loading  a espa ring up with these cubesats and creating a spoked wheel ( minus rim) with 100m radius.

http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/%7Efiso/telecon/Hoyt_3-4-15/

Offline Nilof

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #11 on: 03/05/2015 01:10 PM »
FISO teleconference.
Trusselator maybe ready for space demo in 2016. Last slide has some interesting near term applications. I can imagine loading  a espa ring up with these cubesats and creating a spoked wheel ( minus rim) with 100m radius.

http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/%7Efiso/telecon/Hoyt_3-4-15/

Very interesting summary of their progress, and shows off just how freakishly strong and stiff their structures are even in 1g. Definitely worth a read, I attached the paper below to prevent link rot.
« Last Edit: 03/05/2015 01:10 PM by Nilof »
For a variable Isp spacecraft running at constant power and constant acceleration, the mass ratio is linear in delta-v.   Δv = ve0(MR-1). Or equivalently: Δv = vef PMF. Also, this is energy-optimal for a fixed delta-v and mass ratio.

Offline tea monster

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #12 on: 03/05/2015 03:23 PM »
I tried to find a reference for this, but Google has fallen out with me and is no longer my freind :'(

I'm sure I read about an automatic structural beam extruder that was going to be used for solar power sats. IIRC they flew a test on the Shuttle at one point back in the 90's. I can't find any reference for it though.

Offline RanulfC

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #13 on: 03/05/2015 04:43 PM »
I tried to find a reference for this, but Google has fallen out with me and is no longer my freind :'(

I'm sure I read about an automatic structural beam extruder that was going to be used for solar power sats. IIRC they flew a test on the Shuttle at one point back in the 90's. I can't find any reference for it though.

On the ground, not on the Shuttle. It was a robot that used "strips" of aluminum and spot-welded them together into a truss structure. Anymore it's about HOW you Google I suppose. I tried "beam-builder, etc" but came up with nothing until I hit this note on this page:
http://www.nss.org/settlement/DistantSuns/distantsuns_chap06.html
"So it was that NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center awarded a $635,000 contract to Grumman to build a "Space Fabrication Demonstration System"; that is, a beam-builder. The first such device was completed and delivered to Marshall in 1978. On May 4, 1978, it produced its first beam in ground test.

Plug in "Space Fabrication Demonstration System" and you're on your way :)
Examples:
"Space Fabrication Demonstration System final report"
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19830002888.pdf

"Space Fabrication Demonstration System technical report"
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19790021042.pdf

And there's an (older, early last year) thread on it for information as well:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33977.0;all

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline Kansan52

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #14 on: 03/05/2015 05:31 PM »
Way back, had a nice glossy booklet from McDonnel Douglas about a beam builder system for large sapce structures. If memory serves, that would have been in the 70's and was similar to a seemless siding/guttering machine. Unfortunately, memory doesn't point out where that booklet might be located.

Offline Nilof

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #15 on: 03/05/2015 06:20 PM »
It's certainly impressive to see how modern electronics has changed things. What used to require a program of dedicated shuttle flights to demonstrate can now be done with cubesats.
For a variable Isp spacecraft running at constant power and constant acceleration, the mass ratio is linear in delta-v.   Δv = ve0(MR-1). Or equivalently: Δv = vef PMF. Also, this is energy-optimal for a fixed delta-v and mass ratio.

Online TrevorMonty

Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #16 on: 06/01/2015 07:27 AM »
Paul Allen's Vulcan Inc is considering investing in Tethers Unlimited.

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/space-wa2/

Beames said Tethers Unlimited in Bothell is one potential investment. Although nothing is finalized, “I can tell you, I’m impressed.”


Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Tethers Unlimited's SpiderFab NIAC presentation
« Reply #17 on: 06/01/2015 07:01 PM »
I, for one, welcome our new arachnoid overloads.

ROBOT Arachnoid Overlords.  They get a bit testy about the difference.
My God!  It's full of universes!

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