Author Topic: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification  (Read 16141 times)

Offline newpylong

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #20 on: 08/08/2013 08:18 pm »
You're missing the point... F9-R in expendable form (what we call the v1.1) should be able to lift either DC or CST-100. (13,150kg to LEO)

When you write F9R people assume the reusable form, which is commonly assumed to have roughly half the payload.

I'm not missing the point. If you want to correct anyone, ask Lobo to say 1.1 not R if he means an expendable vehicle. My reply was based on the reusable not having the lift capacity. Really not a big deal.
« Last Edit: 08/08/2013 08:27 pm by newpylong »

Offline Lobo

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #21 on: 08/08/2013 09:23 pm »
Isn't it planning to launch on an Atlas 402?  Which I believe has a payload capacity around 12.5 mt to LEO and F9R will have around 13.1mt to LEO.

I wasn't referring to a reusable version of F9R, which will probably only have Delta II class capacity to LEO capacity.

Or do you mean F9R will end up with less than 12.5mt of capacity?

F9-R most likely not enough payload capacity for DC.



I'm thinking if Dreamchaser gets looking possibly like the downselect survivor, they should take a page out of Boeing's book. 
Dream chaser launching on a man-rated F9R (not Grasshopper) from LC-39A baby!




Offline Lobo

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #22 on: 08/08/2013 09:25 pm »
Please don't use the F9R moniker for standard F9v1.1 flights. You will just confuse everyone.

I thought it was to be called the F9R, regardless of it was flying in an expendable or reusable configuration?  That it wasn't actually referred to as F9v1.1 by SpaceX (at least any more)

Wasn't there a whole thread string somewhere around here that hammered that out?  Elon called the new LV "F9R" pronounced "F-niner".
And that referred to the new LV regardless of if it had legs and boosted back and landed or not.

I thought that was it's official brand name now?
« Last Edit: 08/08/2013 09:32 pm by Lobo »

Offline Lars_J

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #23 on: 08/08/2013 09:32 pm »
Elon called it F9-R in a tweet. SpaceX is officially only calling it F9 on their web site. It is probably safer to not use the F9-R or F9R terms unless you mean partial or full reusability.

Offline Lobo

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #24 on: 08/08/2013 09:36 pm »
Elon called it F9-R in a tweet. SpaceX is officially only calling it F9 on their web site. It is probably safer to not use the F9-R or F9R terms unless you mean partial or full reusability.

Well, regardless, I meant the expendable version of the new Falcon 9 which can do 13mt+ to LEO to fly Dreamchaser as a potential way to get the fan-favorite Commercial crew vehicle to win the down select, but SpaceX still getting a piece of the pie where they can finish up Dragonrider themselves...as they said was their plan even if they don't win CCiCAP.
And it could then launch crews from Pad 39A and a new crew access tower would not need to be added to LC-41.

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #25 on: 08/08/2013 09:48 pm »
Will the crewed Dragon launch on a F9R (reusable)?

Offline Lobo

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #26 on: 08/08/2013 10:38 pm »
Will the crewed Dragon launch on a F9R (reusable)?

Good question.  Not sure.  The new Dragon with LAS system might be too heavy for the reusable F9.  I don't know how much it will weigh with it's LAS system, full propellant load, and crew or cargo.  sounds like SpaceX will go to just once common capsule for both cargo and crew (if they get crew) rather than have the old Dragon and the new Dragon. Then they can propulsively land downmass too. 

But, if the F9R-reusable only has about 1/2 the capacity of the expendable version, and the expendable version has a little over 13mt, I don't see how it could do it.  I'm guessing the new Dragon with LAS system and full propellant load and a crew will be too heavy for it.

The Cargo version might be able to use it though, as it might not need a full launch abort propellant load.  I think the amount of propellant needed for landing is less than for abort, so a cargo Dragon will only need enough to land.  So it could be light enough to fly on the reusable F9 depending on the cargo upmass both internal and external.

 

Offline manboy

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #27 on: 08/09/2013 03:41 am »
I saw that clause about commercial passengers.

It says that NASA must be reimbursed for any non-NASA visitors to the ISS. I wonder what those reimbursement rates will be ? NASA could price those seats in the 75-100 million range, which would basically kill any thought of carrying any non-NASA passengers on the flight.
Admittedly the clause makes sense because NASA intends to use the unoccupied space for up/down mass. Anyway, since there will be two NDS ports on the ISS and NASA only plans to use one; maybe a commercial mission could be financed and dock to the other port.
« Last Edit: 08/10/2013 05:54 am by manboy »
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #28 on: 08/09/2013 04:28 am »
NASA has plans for both - The other port will be for crew overlap or as a spare.

Offline manboy

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #29 on: 08/09/2013 04:45 am »
NASA has plans for both - The other port will be for crew overlap or as a spare.
It's a back-up port. Currently nothing is planned to dock to it. USOS crew overlap is not planned. See L2 for more info.

Even if it were to be used it could still serve as a back-up to the primary.
« Last Edit: 08/09/2013 04:57 am by manboy »
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline MP99

I'm thinking if Dreamchaser gets looking possibly like the downselect survivor, they should take a page out of Boeing's book. 
Dream chaser launching on a man-rated F9R (not Grasshopper) from LC-39A baby!

F9-R most likely not enough payload capacity for DC.

Isn't it planning to launch on an Atlas 402?  Which I believe has a payload capacity around 12.5 mt to LEO and F9R will have around 13.1mt to LEO.

Don't forget that Atlas must fly a less lofted trajectory to aid during aborts.

Just raising this in case the same modification to F9's trajectory might reduce capacity slightly below Atlas for crewed configs.

cheers, Martin

Online Robotbeat

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #31 on: 08/09/2013 04:04 pm »
Again, remember that the performance of F9v1.1 according to NLS II is almost 16mT to LEO.
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Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #32 on: 08/09/2013 04:08 pm »
Will the crewed Dragon launch on a F9R (reusable)?

Good question.  Not sure.  The new Dragon with LAS system might be too heavy for the reusable F9.  I don't know how much it will weigh with it's LAS system, full propellant load, and crew or cargo.  sounds like SpaceX will go to just once common capsule for both cargo and crew (if they get crew) rather than have the old Dragon and the new Dragon. Then they can propulsively land downmass too. 

But, if the F9R-reusable only has about 1/2 the capacity of the expendable version, and the expendable version has a little over 13mt, I don't see how it could do it.  I'm guessing the new Dragon with LAS system and full propellant load and a crew will be too heavy for it.

The Cargo version might be able to use it though, as it might not need a full launch abort propellant load.  I think the amount of propellant needed for landing is less than for abort, so a cargo Dragon will only need enough to land.  So it could be light enough to fly on the reusable F9 depending on the cargo upmass both internal and external.

 

Current Dragon rode a V1.0 that only had 8.5mt to ISS. A partial reusable F9R would have ~80% of the expendable version or about 10.5 which was the original Block II payload size or the target size for Dragon with max payload. Crew Dragon would have to be a lot heavier to not be able to be launched on the 1st stage reusable only F9R version.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #33 on: 08/09/2013 04:10 pm »
It's not impossible that the crewed Dragon would do an orbital insertion burn.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Lobo

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #34 on: 08/09/2013 09:05 pm »
Again, remember that the performance of F9v1.1 according to NLS II is almost 16mT to LEO.

SpaceX's own website gives the 13.15mt number though.

http://www.spacex.com/falcon9

And 4.85mt to GTO.  Which put it right about the same as Atlas V-401 (4.95mt to GTO)  and a bit above a Delta IV-Medum with 4m upper stage and no SRB's (4.2mt to GTO) But less than any of the Delta IV configs with SRB's. 

But who knows if that will be revised or not later.

Offline Lobo

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #35 on: 08/09/2013 09:11 pm »
Will the crewed Dragon launch on a F9R (reusable)?

Good question.  Not sure.  The new Dragon with LAS system might be too heavy for the reusable F9.  I don't know how much it will weigh with it's LAS system, full propellant load, and crew or cargo.  sounds like SpaceX will go to just once common capsule for both cargo and crew (if they get crew) rather than have the old Dragon and the new Dragon. Then they can propulsively land downmass too. 

But, if the F9R-reusable only has about 1/2 the capacity of the expendable version, and the expendable version has a little over 13mt, I don't see how it could do it.  I'm guessing the new Dragon with LAS system and full propellant load and a crew will be too heavy for it.

The Cargo version might be able to use it though, as it might not need a full launch abort propellant load.  I think the amount of propellant needed for landing is less than for abort, so a cargo Dragon will only need enough to land.  So it could be light enough to fly on the reusable F9 depending on the cargo upmass both internal and external.

 

Current Dragon rode a V1.0 that only had 8.5mt to ISS. A partial reusable F9R would have ~80% of the expendable version or about 10.5 which was the original Block II payload size or the target size for Dragon with max payload. Crew Dragon would have to be a lot heavier to not be able to be launched on the 1st stage reusable only F9R version.

I thought the partially reusable F9R would have more like 1/2 the payload capacity of the expendable one?

Offline guckyfan

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Re: NASA Outlines its Plans for Commercial Crew Certification
« Reply #36 on: 08/09/2013 09:18 pm »
I thought the partially reusable F9R would have more like 1/2 the payload capacity of the expendable one?

Elon Musk stated in an Interview a while ago that the fully reusable vehicle 1. and 2. stage would have about half the payload. But that was a goal, not an engineering calculation for a given launch vehicle.

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