Author Topic: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2  (Read 521342 times)

Online Roy_H

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #700 on: 11/12/2014 02:29 am »
NASA has never said anything about using both forever.  After the certs and first few flights NASA will re-compete.  One or both could win or lose based on cost, customer satisfaction, frequent flyer programs...

NASA has repeatedly said that they want redundancy, backup with different companies. Possibly SNC would get chosen in the future and either Boeing or SpaceX could loose out. But down to one? Only if Congress forces it on them.
"If we don't achieve re-usability, I will consider SpaceX to be a failure." - Elon Musk

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #701 on: 11/12/2014 02:33 am »
{snip}
NASA has never said anything about using both forever.  After the certs and first few flights NASA will recompete.  One or both could win or lose based onc ost, customer satisfaction, frequent flyer programs...

It is a beginners mistake for a manager to choose one monopoly supplier when he can play two suppliers off against each other.

Online yg1968

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #702 on: 11/12/2014 05:13 am »

Yes, each company will move along at their milestone pace.  I don't think ther eis anything magic about Mayish except for maybe CRS2.  But ISSPO will not be locking in a provider at that point I believe.

NASA will not be trainign the crews - the providers do.

it is not practical to train crews for both.  We will never have a person go up/down on different (excelt *maybe* a tourist) and the flights for an ISS increment are too far aprt to train for both.  Probably you will get generic training both until it is clear what vehicle you are taking up.  Even though they are autonomous vehciles they are too complicated to train for both as a pilot/CDR.

NASA has never said anything about using both forever.  After the certs and first few flights NASA will recompete.  One or both could win or lose based onc ost, customer satisfaction, frequent flyer programs...

If NASA decides to fly 6 post-certification missions for each provider that takes us to the end of 2022 which is almost the end of the ISS extension (2024).
« Last Edit: 11/12/2014 05:14 am by yg1968 »

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #703 on: 12/01/2014 11:26 pm »
Boeing Completes First Milestone for NASA’s Commercial Crew Transportation Systems
December 1, 2014

NASA has approved the completion of Boeing’s first milestone in the company’s path toward launching crews to the International Space Station from the United States under a groundbreaking Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contract.

The Certification Baseline Review is the first of many more milestones, including flight tests from Florida’s Space Coast that will establish the basis for certifying Boeing’s human space transportation system to carry NASA astronauts to the space station. The review established a baseline design of the Crew Space Transportation (CST)-100 spacecraft, United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket, and associated ground and mission operations systems.

"The work done now is crucial to each of the future steps in the path to certification, including a flight test to the International Space Station," said Kathy Lueders, manager of NASA's Commercial Crew Program. "This first milestone establishes an expected operating rhythm for NASA and Boeing to meet our certification goal."

On Sept. 16, the agency unveiled its selection of Boeing and SpaceX to transport U.S. crews to and from the space station using their CST-100 and Crew Dragon spacecraft, respectively. These contracts will provide U.S. missions to the station, ending the nation’s sole reliance on Russia and allowing the station’s current crew of six to grow, enabling more research aboard the unique microgravity laboratory.

The CCtCap contracts are designed for the companies to complete NASA certification of their human space transportation systems, including a crewed flight test with at least one NASA astronaut aboard to verify the fully integrated rocket and spacecraft system can launch from the United States, maneuver in orbit, and dock to the space station, as well as validate all its systems perform as expected. Once the test program has been completed successfully and the systems achieve NASA certification, the contractors will conduct at least two, and as many as six, crewed missions to the space station. The spacecraft also will serve as a lifeboat for astronauts aboard the station.

During the review, Boeing provided NASA with a roadmap toward certification, including its baseline design, concept of operations and management and insight plans. The Boeing team also detailed how the CST-100 would connect with the station and how it plans to train NASA astronauts to fly the CST-100 in orbit.

"It's important for us to set a robust plan for achieving certification upfront," said Boeing Commercial Crew Program Manager John Mulholland. "It's crucial for us to achieve our 2017 goal, and the plan we’ve put in place will get us there."

By expanding the crew size and enabling private companies to handle launches to low-Earth orbit -- a region NASA has been visiting since 1962 -- the nation's space agency can focus on getting the most research and experience out of America's investment in the International Space Station. NASA also can expand its focus to develop the Space Launch System and Orion capsule for missions in the proving ground of deep space beyond the moon to advance the skills and techniques that will enable humans to explore Mars.

http://www.nasa.gov/content/boeing-completes-first-milestone-for-nasa-s-commercial-crew-transportation-systems

Offline Beittil

To me this just comes across as yet another 'power point' milestone. A couple of days of presentations on how things could be and wham... Boeing can hold up their hands again.

Where is your hardware Boeing? :(

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #705 on: 12/02/2014 10:29 am »
To me this just comes across as yet another 'power point' milestone. A couple of days of presentations on how things could be and wham... Boeing can hold up their hands again.

Where is your hardware Boeing? :(

Exactly my thoughts too. But you must admit Boeing are good at this game.

When will they do the pad abort?

When will they do the in flight abort? Or is the name Boeing on the label good for omitting one or both?


Offline edkyle99

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #706 on: 12/02/2014 01:53 pm »
To me this just comes across as yet another 'power point' milestone. A couple of days of presentations on how things could be and wham... Boeing can hold up their hands again.

Where is your hardware Boeing? :(
Boeing has already made some test articles, but the November 3/10 Aviation Week reports that assembly of the Structural Test Article was set to begin in November, and that upper and lower pressure domes and the tunnel assembly were all in final stages of machining at the vendor.  The STA is expected to be completed during the Spring of 2015. 

The STA is one of four spacecraft planned - the STA, a 2016 pad abort test article, a 2017 uncrewed test article, and the first crewed spacecraft set to fly later in 2017.   A flight design service module will be tested at White Sands (propulsion system qualification tests) in 2016.  A flight qualification flight unit and pad abort test unit will also be at White Sands.

Remember, we haven't seen any photos of a real Dragon 2 either.  Both programs are just kicking off.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/02/2014 01:54 pm by edkyle99 »

Online abaddon

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #707 on: 12/02/2014 05:22 pm »
Remember, we haven't seen any photos of a real Dragon 2 either.  Both programs are just kicking off.

The Dragon V2 shown earlier was real hardware.  Apparently the pressure vessel will be used for both abort tests.  But that's not relevant to this thread.

On topic, I still have not heard of any planned in-flight abort test for the CST-100.  Is there any reference to when that will take place?

Offline arachnitect

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #708 on: 12/02/2014 05:34 pm »
To me this just comes across as yet another 'power point' milestone. A couple of days of presentations on how things could be and wham... Boeing can hold up their hands again.

Where is your hardware Boeing? :(

First milestones are like this. Look at CCiCap, CCDev2, etc.

Spacex will have similar milestones.

Offline jacqmans

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #709 on: 12/10/2014 06:34 pm »
Boeing CST-100 Spacecraft Moves Another Step Closer to Flight

Program completes baseline and ground segment Critical Design Review
 

HOUSTON, Dec. 10, 2014 – Boeing [NYSE: BA] and NASA recently completed the Ground Segment Critical Design Review and set the baseline design for the company’s Commercial Crew Transportation System, moving a step closer to the planned early 2017 voyage to the International Space Station.

Completion of the Certification Baseline Review allows construction on system hardware, including the spacecraft and United Launch Alliance (ULA) launch vehicle adaptor, to begin. It also keeps the effort on track for achieving human-rated certification of the vehicle and ULA Atlas V rocket.

“This is an important step towards achieving human-rated certification,” said Boeing Commercial Crew Program Manager John Mulholland. “This review provided an in-depth assessment of our training, facilities, operations and our flight processes.”

Setting the design was the first milestone under the $4.2 billion contract NASA awarded to Boeing in September.

The second milestone in the Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) phase of the Commercial Crew Program, the Ground System Critical Design Review, evaluates all the ground operations and systems, mission operation systems, facilities, training systems, including mock-ups and trainers, and the control center.

The Crew Space Transportation (CST)-100 spacecraft, being developed in partnership with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, will provide a U.S. system for taking astronauts and cargo to low-Earth orbit destinations, such as the space station. It will accommodate up to seven people, or a mix of crew and cargo, and features a weldless structure, wireless Internet, and Boeing LED “Sky Lighting” technology.

Offline The Amazing Catstronaut

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #710 on: 12/10/2014 09:20 pm »
...Boeing LED “Sky Lighting” technology.

Pardon my lay-personisms, but I must have missed the memo on what this is exactly. What on earth is "sky lighting" technology? The roof of my house confides in me that the inclusion of "sky lighting" technology into a orbiting pressure vessel may not be structurally benign.  ::)

Is it:

A) A skylight, but in space *none serious*.

B) A bunch of tacky LEDs or whatever it is that seems to bathe the capsule interior in stark blue light from the mockup's they've created earlier. But in space. *pseudo-genuine question*

D) Creative marketing of the "rich Corinthian leather" variety? *genuine question*

C) (most likely explanation) Something with an actual function? *curious question*

Sorry to be a dunce.
« Last Edit: 12/10/2014 09:22 pm by The Amazing Catstronaut »
Resident feline spaceflight expert. Knows nothing of value about human spaceflight.

Offline Will

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #711 on: 12/10/2014 09:40 pm »
...Boeing LED “Sky Lighting” technology.

Pardon my lay-personisms, but I must have missed the memo on what this is exactly. What on earth is "sky lighting" technology? The roof of my house confides in me that the inclusion of "sky lighting" technology into a orbiting pressure vessel may not be structurally benign.  ::)

Is it:

A) A skylight, but in space *none serious*.

B) A bunch of tacky LEDs or whatever it is that seems to bathe the capsule interior in stark blue light from the mockup's they've created earlier. But in space. *pseudo-genuine question*

D) Creative marketing of the "rich Corinthian leather" variety? *genuine question*

C) (most likely explanation) Something with an actual function? *curious question*

Sorry to be a dunce.

B & C. It's the same kind of kind of LED lighting they use on their newest model jets. The sky blue is supposed to make the cabin seem larger, and the LEDs require lower power and last longer than fluorescents.
« Last Edit: 12/10/2014 09:40 pm by Will »

Online oiorionsbelt

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #712 on: 12/10/2014 10:19 pm »
Every vehicle put forward for consideration in CCtCAP had some version of blue interior lighting.

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #713 on: 12/10/2014 10:50 pm »
Boeing Covers Groundwork in Second Milestone
December 10, 2014

The momentum of certifying American space transportation systems capable of carrying astronauts to the International Space Station continued on pace as NASA took a comprehensive look at all of Boeing’s ground-based system designs. This Ground Segment Critical Design Review marks the second milestone in the company’s Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contract, NASA’s Launch America initiative designed to return human spaceflight launches to the United States and end our reliance on Russia.

The three-week-long review covered Boeing’s plans for constructing and processing its Crew Space Transportation System, called the CST-100, in a former orbiter processing facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida, where Boeing will process its CST-100. It also covered the development of a nearby mission control center that would be the hub of the company’s engineering operations.

“Along with facility designs, we looked at the operation processes,” said Dave Allega, a lead in the Ground and Mission Operations Office of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. “How would they be using those facilities? What is the flow? How are they going to build up their new spacecraft, get it ready to fly, put it on the launch vehicle and then operate it once it is there? Then, after landing, how will they go recover it and turn it around to go and do it again?”

A few dozen engineers, along with safety and health and human performance experts, took a deep dive into the various elements here on the ground that would support a crew mission to the station. Even astronauts who could one day fly aboard the CST-100 participated in the review of these critical elements, such as how Boeing would test flight hardware, and assemble and integrate its spacecraft to the United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket. They even looked at the equipment that would move the integrated stack to Cape Canaveral Air Force Station’s Space Launch Complex 41.

“ULA has a long history of successful uncrewed commercial launches, and now they are highlighting what is different about flying a crew,” said John Mulholland, Boeing Commercial Crew Program Manager.

Another critical piece of this review included how Boeing plans to train astronauts prior to missions and how the company will monitor crew members during all phases of the flight. For example, the CST-100 spacecraft simulator the company built at its Houston Product Support Center will start to see a lot of action as more pilot-in-the-loop demonstrations are performed and crew training begins.

“The CST-100 will be a more simple vehicle to operate than the space shuttle, but the automation is complicated in and of itself, so we need to understand that automation and so does the crew,” said Allega. “When Boeing trains our astronauts, they will have to balance simplicity, and giving the crew everything they need to know to manually operate the spacecraft just in case something goes wrong.”

As part of its Launch America initiative, NASA selected Boeing and SpaceX to finalize their respective space transportation system designs, then build and fly test flights with crews to the station over the next few years. For actual crew transportation missions to the ISS, the CCtCap contract requires crew handover to NASA within one hour of landing, which is why Boeing is looking at bringing the CST-100 home to land on terra-ferma in the Western United States using parachute and then utilizing airbags to soften the final touchdown. This means for the first time since the end of NASA’s Space Shuttle Program, agency managers, program managers and medical teams won’t need to leave the United States to greet astronauts returning from space.

"This critical design review was validation to the NASA team that all of Boeing’s ground segment plans are in place and are starting to match up to our certification requirements," said Kathy Lueders, manager of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. "This is a really good sign that we're marching at a good pace to reach our goal of certifying the system to fly to the space station."

http://www.nasa.gov/content/boeing-covers-groundwork-in-second-milestone

Image Caption: Concept of the floor of the CST-100 assembly facility that Boeing envisions at Kennedy Space Center. Image Credit: Boeing

Offline clongton

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #714 on: 12/10/2014 11:54 pm »
Remember, we haven't seen any photos of a real Dragon 2 either.  Both programs are just kicking off.

 - Ed Kyle

Yes we have, at the unveiling. Musk made a point that it was real flight hardware. Obviously not flight "ready", but a real Dragon v2. Both spacecraft are following their own schedules but I would estimate that Dragon appears to be further along. YMMV.
« Last Edit: 12/10/2014 11:57 pm by clongton »
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Offline mkent

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #715 on: 12/11/2014 01:45 am »
...Boeing LED “Sky Lighting” technology.

Pardon my lay-personisms, but I must have missed the memo on what this is exactly. What on earth is "sky lighting" technology? The roof of my house confides in me that the inclusion of "sky lighting" technology into a orbiting pressure vessel may not be structurally benign.  ::)

It's Boeing's blue lighting scheme first used on the 787.  Here's a picture of it in the commercial CST-100.  NASA's version should be similar.

Edit: Removed bad html & used attach instead.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2014 01:47 am by mkent »

Offline Garrett

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #716 on: 12/12/2014 09:38 am »
Boeing CST-100 Spacecraft Moves Another Step Closer to Flight
Program completes baseline and ground segment Critical Design Review
...
Completion of the Certification Baseline Review allows construction on system hardware, including the spacecraft and United Launch Alliance (ULA) launch vehicle adaptor, to begin.

(bold emphasis mine)
Now things get interesting. Will the next milestone be a milestone of actual hardware? If so, then Boeing is catching up quickly on SpaceX.
That latest review by Boeing appears to be equivalent to milestone 13B in SpaceX's CCiCAP contract, which SpaceX was supposed to have completed in Q1 or Q2 of 2014. I can't find any confirmation, however, that SpaceX completed that milestone.
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Offline Eer

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #717 on: 12/12/2014 11:09 am »
...Boeing LED “Sky Lighting” technology.

Pardon my lay-personisms, but I must have missed the memo on what this is exactly. What on earth is "sky lighting" technology? The roof of my house confides in me that the inclusion of "sky lighting" technology into a orbiting pressure vessel may not be structurally benign.  ::)

It's Boeing's blue lighting scheme first used on the 787.  Here's a picture of it in the commercial CST-100.  NASA's version should be similar.

Edit: Removed bad html & used attach instead.

I don't recall seeing the Flux Capacitor design decorating the center consoles before ... I must have missed that detail when looking at these in the past.

Offline mkent

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #718 on: 12/13/2014 01:03 am »
Boeing CST-100 Spacecraft Moves Another Step Closer to Flight
Program completes baseline and ground segment Critical Design Review
...
Completion of the Certification Baseline Review allows construction on system hardware, including the spacecraft and United Launch Alliance (ULA) launch vehicle adaptor, to begin.

(bold emphasis mine)
Now things get interesting. Will the next milestone be a milestone of actual hardware? If so, then Boeing is catching up quickly on SpaceX.
That latest review by Boeing appears to be equivalent to milestone 13B in SpaceX's CCiCAP contract, which SpaceX was supposed to have completed in Q1 or Q2 of 2014. I can't find any confirmation, however, that SpaceX completed that milestone.

Sort of.  There are two milestones mentioned in the press release.  Milestone 2 -- the ground system CDR -- is equivalent to SpaceX CCiCap milestone 13B.  Milestone 1 is the Certification Baseline Review.  SpaceX doesn't have a similar milestone in CCiCap, so it is surely in CCtCap.

As for who's ahead, it's hard to say.  SpaceX has a working cargo Dragon which can be thought of as unmanned prototype for their crew Dragon.  So they are able to perform some tasks much earlier than would be the case in the more traditional from-scratch development program that Boeing must undertake.  That allowed SpaceX to move their structural test article and pad & in-flight abort tests into CCiCap putting those things ahead of Boeing's equivalent tests.

So as of right this instant, Boeing is probably ahead, since they have completed CDR and their baseline review (these are major milestones).  However, they will now have to stand-up a supply chain and establish a production facility, something SpaceX did during COTS.  While they are doing that, SpaceX will perform some major tests and take the lead.

Who will finish first?  Hard to say.  Elon Musks says SpaceX will launch their first manned Dragon in late 2016, though he says common schedule slips may push that back to mid 2017.  Boeing says their first manned flight will be in mid 2017.  Historically they haven't slipped as much as SpaceX, but that could change.  Nobody knows right now how this will turn out.

It should be fun.


Offline ThereIWas3

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #719 on: 12/15/2014 05:14 pm »
The 1+6 seating in that photo looks like 6 are passengers and only one gets to work the knobs.
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