Author Topic: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2  (Read 521010 times)

Online Eer

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #180 on: 02/15/2014 09:22 pm »
Hmmm... The phrase "past performance" does come to mind.

Offline clongton

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #181 on: 02/15/2014 09:28 pm »
Boeing picked more conservative milestones than SpaceX did. Boeing picked more analysis and paper studies for their milestones, SpaceX picked pad abort and an in-flight abort. Is Ed honestly saying these are comparable /at all/??

Is Ed honestly saying that paperwork counts more than actual flown hardware?
Say it ain't so Ed. ::)
Number of Atlas 5 Launches:  43 N/A
Number of Falcon 9 v1.1 Launches:  3 N/A
Number of CST-100 Flights:  0
Number of SpaceX Crew Vehicle Flights:  0

Digging deeper into history gives these numbers.

Number of SpaceX orbital launches:  13 N/A
Number of Boeing or Boeing predecessor or partly owned company orbital launches:  787 N/A
Number of Boeing or predecessor/partly owned launches by orbital family rockets:  906 N/A
Number of Boeing or Boeing predecessor crewed orbital spacecraft flown:  All previous U.S. flights N/A

 - Ed Kyle
Hmmm... The phrase "past performance" does come to mind.


Number of times a CST-100 of any flavor has flown into space - 0.
Number of times a Dragon of any flavor has flown into space 4.

We are not discussing rockets from either company
We are not discussing any spacecraft that are not part of this specific Commercial Crew program.
We ARE discussing CST-100, DreamChaser and Dragon - ONLY.

Specifically the CST-100. Read the Thread title.
« Last Edit: 02/15/2014 09:40 pm by clongton »
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #182 on: 02/15/2014 10:35 pm »
Do we even know when (or if) CST-100 has a launch abort test scheduled?

And once they do that, will they do a max-Q abort test?

Offline joek

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #183 on: 02/15/2014 10:59 pm »
Do we even know when (or if) CST-100 has a launch abort test scheduled?

And once they do that, will they do a max-Q abort test?

No.  Nothing funded or scheduled under CCiCap.  Assuming a schedule is published and Boeing wins a CCtCap award, we'll know in August.

Offline joek

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #184 on: 02/16/2014 12:26 am »
... it doesn't appear SpaceX will have actually demonstrated much more than Boeing at that point. 
Oh I'm sorry I must have missed the four round-trip flights into space of CST-100. When did they happen?

I was speaking to use of particular CCiCap milestones or out of context as a questionable indicator of who is "ahead" with respect to commercial crew.  In particular, that both SpaceX and Boeing will be at CDR soon and at approximately the same time (which was/is a key CCiCap objective), and thus in that respect they should be at relative parity, all other things equal.  Of course all other things are not equal, and whether they balance is an open question.

Yes, the SpaceX COTS/CRS flights must surely count for something (I was not disputing that); in the CCiCap selection statement, SpaceX received a plus for leveraging Dragon cargo into Dragon Crew (among other things).  OTOH, Boeing received a plus for their approach to certification (among other things), and the highest technical confidence score (above SpaceX).

So what does that mean today and for CCtCap?  I don't know, but I think this is still a serious race with no clear winner; simply pointing to one area of accomplishment while ignoring other areas misses the forest for the trees.  In any case, we should know in August.  (And apologies if I accidentally stepped on your dog. [edit] Hard to make a statement without stepping on something.  I'll try to be clearer in the future.)
« Last Edit: 02/16/2014 02:40 am by joek »

Offline Comga

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #185 on: 02/16/2014 04:05 am »
Please give it up Ed and whoever else. These are not updates.  These are not discussions of updates. These are silly back and forths after a silly absolutist comment about relative standing. What good can it do to spit back a litany of well known facts? 
Boeing and SpaceX are taking very different approaches from very different positions. We all have our opinions, none of which will change and none of which has any real importance.

Let's all hope and look for some real hardware news that we can share, discuss, and learn from.
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Offline joek

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #186 on: 02/16/2014 09:49 pm »
Most recent indication of flight schedule I've seen from Boeing (from their Beyond Earth site):
Quote
The first CST-100 test flight will launch in late 2016, with the first manned mission planned for early 2017.

edit: Assuming of course Boeing wins a sufficient CCtCap award.
« Last Edit: 02/16/2014 09:51 pm by joek »

Offline Ike17055

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #187 on: 02/23/2014 10:23 pm »
Is CST-100 still being discussed for station reboost with its unused launch abort propellant?  Are any of the other contenders offering this capability as well? It would seem to be a valuable service and an efficient means of applying propellant as opposed to dumping it. And has the question of its service module (ring) accommodating a cargo load ever been fully answered?

Offline arachnitect

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #188 on: 02/27/2014 09:50 pm »
Last Shuttle Commander Virtually Flies Boeing CST-100 to Space Station
Quote
Chris Ferguson, commander of the final space shuttle flight, virtually returned to space in the Boeing Crew Space Transportation (CST)-100 simulator, when he recently performed manual piloting activities, including on-orbit attitude and translation maneuvers, docking and backing away from a virtual International Space Station, and a manual re-entry to Earth.

This is in service of the pilot in the loop ccicap milestone.

More at the link, with video.

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« Last Edit: 03/03/2014 03:06 pm by jacqmans »

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #190 on: 03/06/2014 11:25 pm »
Boeing CST-100 Unveiled, Ready for Testing

Published on Mar 6, 2014
A scale model of Boeing's CST-100 spacecraft with an Atlas V rocket successfully underwent a fit check, verifying that the model accurately fits the hardware that will be used during dynamic stability testing in NASA Langley Research Center's Transonic Dynamics Tunnel (TDT) this spring.

Boeing is one of three American companies working with NASA's Commercial Crew Program (CCP) to develop safe, reliable and cost-effective crew transportation systems during NASA's Commercial Crew Integrated Capability (CCiCap) initiative, which is intended to make commercial human spaceflight services available for government and commercial customers.

Triumph Aerospace Systems, Inc. in Newport News, Va., built the model in collaboration with Boeing Space Exploration of Houston. NASA Langley will provide expertise and facilities to characterize the dynamic stability of Boeing's CST-100. The test will consist of two dynamic stability test techniques, known as free-to-oscillate and forced oscillation, which will characterize the external forces the spacecraft could experience during an emergency abort from the launch vehicle.

Characterization of the test equipment and lessons learned will be directly applicable to future test programs. Additionally, the test will help maintain the center's critical skills in highly specialized areas and unique facilities, and generate revenue for the center.


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Offline rusty

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #191 on: 03/12/2014 10:40 pm »
Boeing CST-100 Unveiled, Ready for Testing
A scale model of Boeing's CST-100 spacecraft with an Atlas V rocket successfully underwent a fit check, verifying that the model accurately fits the hardware ...
Ummm. Congratulations Triumph Aerospace Systems on fabricating an aluminum model to fit another model? As the design evolves, will they be producing more of these? I'm not sure which is more impressive, this, the cardboard mock-up Boeing's been showing off, or the fact Boeing was able to get and continue to receive funding.
Seriously, SpaceDev has fine-tuned construction techniques, built and tested a composite aerostructure while continuing work on their hybrid rockets and escape system. Dragon is already flying with continued work on their escape and landing systems. Boeing has --- a small scale chunk of metal made by someone else? It reinforces my long-standing view that their contract is black cover and will never see completion.

Offline arachnitect

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #192 on: 03/12/2014 11:14 pm »
Boeing CST-100 Unveiled, Ready for Testing
A scale model of Boeing's CST-100 spacecraft with an Atlas V rocket successfully underwent a fit check, verifying that the model accurately fits the hardware ...
Ummm. Congratulations Triumph Aerospace Systems on fabricating an aluminum model to fit another model? As the design evolves, will they be producing more of these? I'm not sure which is more impressive, this, the cardboard mock-up Boeing's been showing off, or the fact Boeing was able to get and continue to receive funding.
Seriously, SpaceDev has fine-tuned construction techniques, built and tested a composite aerostructure while continuing work on their hybrid rockets and escape system. Dragon is already flying with continued work on their escape and landing systems. Boeing has --- a small scale chunk of metal made by someone else? It reinforces my long-standing view that their contract is black cover and will never see completion.

Boeing has done all the things you mention and more.

The video is from NASA Langley, and is therefore highlighting the work they do at that center.

Offline Jim

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #193 on: 03/13/2014 01:52 am »
Ummm. Congratulations Triumph Aerospace Systems on fabricating an aluminum model to fit another model? As the design evolves, will they be producing more of these? I'm not sure which is more impressive, this, the cardboard mock-up Boeing's been showing off, or the fact Boeing was able to get and continue to receive funding.
Seriously, SpaceDev has fine-tuned construction techniques, built and tested a composite aerostructure while continuing work on their hybrid rockets and escape system. Dragon is already flying with continued work on their escape and landing systems. Boeing has --- a small scale chunk of metal made by someone else? It reinforces my long-standing view that their contract is black cover and will never see completion.

What are these?  You should do a little research before making such unsupported statements, which is nothing more than biased opinion.

There also is a Avionics Software Integration Facility
« Last Edit: 03/13/2014 02:14 am by Jim »

Offline rusty

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #194 on: 03/14/2014 12:25 am »
What are these?  You should do a little research before making such unsupported statements, which is nothing more than biased opinion. There also is a Avionics Software Integration Facility
Biased? Not at all, against who and quite the discreditive assumption.
Boeing has yet to surpass Blue Origin's well-funded development who was cut after CCDev2. At that time Boeing only had a presentation, but unusually took the largest chunk of cash to date and began work. At the time I suspected a good deal of the money would go to other Boeing projects, but this one has done quite well for them;

"Payments are made only after partner demonstrates that the milestone criteria have been successfully met."

Based on their own 2013-2014 roadmap, Boeing is very far behind and I doubt they'll pass the Critical Design Review Board in April this year. They've done the PR work, but not the engineering. In April, like Blue Origin, they can thank us for the cash, fold the program and we'll be down to two programs - unless someone else could use funding for unspecified reasons. IMO, of course, but by no means "biased".

Offline Jim

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #195 on: 03/14/2014 02:08 am »

1.  Boeing has yet to surpass Blue Origin's well-funded development who was cut after CCDev2.

2. At the time I suspected a good deal of the money would go to other Boeing projects, but this one has done quite well for them;

3. Boeing is very far behind and

4. I doubt they'll pass the Critical Design Review Board in April this year


Biased because you are accusing them of criminal activity and you have nothing to back it up

1.  Proof?

2.  Unfounded and also slander

3.  Boeing's road map is not NASA's.  They are meeting NASA's schedule. 

4.  IMO doesn't cut it, you need to have data to back it up.

CST-100 is going to be a finalist
« Last Edit: 03/14/2014 02:17 am by Jim »

Offline Prober

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #196 on: 03/14/2014 03:01 am »
Jim is there room in Boeings design to use a "berthing" hatch if needed quickly in the future?

Any opinion if a cargo return version could quickly be put together (crash program) if needed?

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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #197 on: 03/14/2014 03:53 am »
Jim is there room in Boeings design to use a "berthing" hatch if needed quickly in the future?

Any opinion if a cargo return version could quickly be put together (crash program) if needed?
Unneeded. The new CRS contract allows contractors to transfer cargo through docking port, although certainly a CBM would allow larger cargo.
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Offline yg1968

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #198 on: 03/14/2014 01:12 pm »
CST-100 is going to be a finalist

I agree with your other points. But how do you know that Boeing will be a finalist for CCtCap? If their price is out of whack with the rest of the competition, they are likely to be downselected. Apparently, NASA intends to ask more skin in the game from participants for the next round, that could also hurt Boeing if they are not willing to do so.
« Last Edit: 03/14/2014 01:13 pm by yg1968 »

Offline Lurker Steve

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 capsule updates & discussion THREAD 2
« Reply #199 on: 03/14/2014 01:15 pm »
CST-100 is going to be a finalist

I agree with your other points. But how do you know that Boeing will be a finalist for CCtCap? If their price is out of whack with the rest of the competition, they are likely to be downselected. Apparently, NASA intends to ask more skin in the game from participants for the next round, that could also hurt Boeing if they are not willing to do so.

NASA is not budgeting for a down select.

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