Author Topic: NASA Releases Draft RFP for CCtCap (i.e., Phase 2 of Certification)  (Read 78054 times)

Offline Lars_J

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... And the NDS adapters (two eventually?) will be delivered by Dragon or HTV. So the arrival of that adapter also places an early constraint on ISS crew missions.

(But that is very unlikely to be the long pole)

Offline Lurker Steve

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{snip}

BTW open question. What vehicles are currently docking or berthing to ISS with NDS? It looks like CCiCAP are the test pilots (literally) for this technology.

None.  Currently the ISS does not have a NDS.

Until a NDS is fitted to the ISS SpaceX would have to berth its manned Dragon using a CBM.

I doubt most commercial crew vehicles would have a grapple fixture to allow them to be captured by the SSRMS and then berthed to a CBM port. Besides, the actual docking (and NOT berthing) must be a certification milestone I would assume.


Offline Space Pete

I doubt most commercial crew vehicles would have a grapple fixture to allow them to be captured by the SSRMS and then berthed to a CBM port. Besides, the actual docking (and NOT berthing) must be a certification milestone I would assume.

That is all moot anyway, because NASA will never allow crew vehicles to use a CBM, because it is impossible to meet the emergency lifeboat requirements using a CBM.

Analysis shows that should a debris strike occur on the ISS, all modules would lose pressure within three minutes. That means any lifeboat must be able to be undocked in less than that time. With NDS, that would be a simple case of closing the hatch, and hitting the undock button. No cables to disconnect at all, because they are all made automatically via the docking interface.

With CBM however, you would first have to disconnect multiple cables and ventilation ducts, then connect four CPAs (Controller Panel Assembles - basically computers to control the CBM berthing/unberthing), and only then could you close the hatches. However, you still could not simply hit undock, because first the vehicle would need to be grappled by the SSRMS, then all 16 CBM bolts would need to be released (in four sets of four), and then the SSRMS would need to maneuver the vehicle away from the ISS and release it.

And, don't forget, the SSRMS could not be controlled from inside the ISS as all the crewmembers would be inside their escape vehicles, so the ground would need to control it. And, bear in mind that air escaping through a hole in the ISS is basically a thruster, and so any MMOD strike could well cause a loss of attitude control and resulting tumble, breaking antenna lock with the ground and preventing any SSRMS control. But, setting those issues aside for a minute, the entire procedure to escape from the ISS via a CBM vehicle, would, even when rushed through at lightning pace, likely be measured in hours - way too long for a station that would depressurise in three minutes.
« Last Edit: 07/24/2013 04:38 pm by Space Pete »
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Offline Robotbeat

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... And the NDS adapters (two eventually?) will be delivered by Dragon or HTV. So the arrival of that adapter also places an early constraint on ISS crew missions.

(But that is very unlikely to be the long pole)
Maybe unlikely, but it seems the design isn't even finished! Correct me if I'm wrong. They just changed to a Boeing design not too long ago. Also, the capsule needs the docking adapter delivered as govt-furnished equipment, already tested. (Either that, or the design needs to be finalized so the companies can make their own and test them with the finalized docking port on the ground.)
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Offline A_M_Swallow

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I doubt most commercial crew vehicles would have a grapple fixture to allow them to be captured by the SSRMS and then berthed to a CBM port. Besides, the actual docking (and NOT berthing) must be a certification milestone I would assume.

That is all moot anyway, because NASA will never allow crew vehicles to use a CBM, because it is impossible to meet the emergency lifeboat requirements using a CBM.
{snip}

The cargo Dragon already has a grapple fixture so putting one on a hybrid capsule would not be difficult.

A CBM crew vehicle may not be able to act as a lifeboat but that restriction may be ignored depending on how desperate NASA is to send people to the ISS.  I suspect that they would only waive the requirement for 2 or 3 berthings whilst the docking system was sorted out.

Offline yg1968

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Quote from: page 8 of the first PDF document
Government Property

The Government will make available a total of 4 NASA Docking System Block 1 units on a no charge-for-use basis for performance of work under this contract. If there are multiple contract awards, the available units will be equitably distributed, if necessary. The first flight unit will be available February, 2016.

Based on this, there will no test flight to the ISS prior to February 2016.
True, odd that. So even if Spacex are ready they won't be able to, unless they build their own and have it certified.

Bear in mind that SpaceX' first manned mission was in late 2015 under the CCiCap optional milestones (assuming that there was sufficient funding for it). It's possible that the first crewed test flight will not go to the ISS.
« Last Edit: 07/24/2013 06:33 pm by yg1968 »

Offline Lars_J

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I doubt most commercial crew vehicles would have a grapple fixture to allow them to be captured by the SSRMS and then berthed to a CBM port. Besides, the actual docking (and NOT berthing) must be a certification milestone I would assume.

That is all moot anyway, because NASA will never allow crew vehicles to use a CBM, because it is impossible to meet the emergency lifeboat requirements using a CBM.
{snip}

The cargo Dragon already has a grapple fixture so putting one on a hybrid capsule would not be difficult.

A CBM crew vehicle may not be able to act as a lifeboat but that restriction may be ignored depending on how desperate NASA is to send people to the ISS.  I suspect that they would only waive the requirement for 2 or 3 berthings whilst the docking system was sorted out.

Just stop it... A crewed vehicle berthing to ISS with CBM isn't going to happen.

If NASA are truly desperate, there is a much easier solution. Outfit the crew vehicle with APAS docking adapters, since there are already two PMA's up there with APAS. It would add cost and complexity, but would be far simpler and safer than CBM berthing.
« Last Edit: 07/24/2013 06:33 pm by Lars_J »

Offline yg1968

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I doubt most commercial crew vehicles would have a grapple fixture to allow them to be captured by the SSRMS and then berthed to a CBM port. Besides, the actual docking (and NOT berthing) must be a certification milestone I would assume.

That is all moot anyway, because NASA will never allow crew vehicles to use a CBM, because it is impossible to meet the emergency lifeboat requirements using a CBM.
{snip}

The cargo Dragon already has a grapple fixture so putting one on a hybrid capsule would not be difficult.

A CBM crew vehicle may not be able to act as a lifeboat but that restriction may be ignored depending on how desperate NASA is to send people to the ISS.  I suspect that they would only waive the requirement for 2 or 3 berthings whilst the docking system was sorted out.

Just stop it... A crewed vehicle berthing to ISS with CBM isn't going to happen.

If NASA are truly desperate, there is a much easier solution. Outfit the crew vehicle with APAS docking adapters, since there are already two PMA's up there with APAS. It would add cost and complexity, but would be far simpler and safer than CBM berthing.

Both scenarios are unlikely. A crewed test flight doesn't have to go to the ISS.

Offline Space Pete

Just FYI, the first IDA (ISS Docking Adapter) will arrive at the ISS on SpX-7 on April 4 2015, and will be installed the same month - so the notion that IDA arrival is preventing crewed flights from arriving until Feb 2016 is wrong.
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Offline yg1968

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The Feb. 2016 date comes from the NDS unit on the spacecraft. See quote in bold below:

Quote from: page 8 of the first PDF document
Government Property

The Government will make available a total of 4 NASA Docking System Block 1 units on a no charge-for-use basis for performance of work under this contract. If there are multiple contract awards, the available units will be equitably distributed, if necessary. The first flight unit will be available February, 2016.
« Last Edit: 07/24/2013 06:51 pm by yg1968 »

Offline A_M_Swallow

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To permit docking to the ISS using NDS both the ISS and the visiting spaceship need equipping with NDS hardware.  So the earliest docking date is the later of the two dates, also both can slip.

Offline apace

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Any word about which NDS is used now? The original one or the Boeing provided one?

Offline manboy

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{snip}

BTW open question. What vehicles are currently docking or berthing to ISS with NDS? It looks like CCiCAP are the test pilots (literally) for this technology.
Until a NDS is fitted to the ISS SpaceX would have to berth its manned Dragon using a CBM.
Never going to happen. The CBM requires the Canadarm to unberth which adds a long list of additional risks to ISS decrew scenarios.

... And the NDS adapters (two eventually?) will be delivered by Dragon or HTV. So the arrival of that adapter also places an early constraint on ISS crew missions.

(But that is very unlikely to be the long pole)
Maybe unlikely, but it seems the design isn't even finished! Correct me if I'm wrong. They just changed to a Boeing design not too long ago.
Last November.
« Last Edit: 07/24/2013 07:26 pm by manboy »
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Offline Space Pete

Any word about which NDS is used now? The original one or the Boeing provided one?

Boeing's narrow-ring SIMAC system will now be used for NDS. The original system (iLIDS) has been cancelled.
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Offline manboy

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Just FYI, the first IDA (ISS Docking Adapter) will arrive at the ISS on SpX-7 on April 4 2015, and will be installed the same month - so the notion that IDA arrival is preventing crewed flights from arriving until Feb 2016 is wrong.
Can you link the L2 documents? I've haven't been able to find any new info on NDS since that Aviation Week article back in December.
« Last Edit: 07/24/2013 07:32 pm by manboy »
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Offline Space Pete

Can you link the L2 documents? I've haven't been able to find any new info on NDS since that Aviation Week article back in December.

See the latest FPIP chart on L2:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32306

(I'll be doing an article detailing the noteworthy info in this FPIP chart later this week.)
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Offline manboy

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Can you link the L2 documents? I've haven't been able to find any new info on NDS since that Aviation Week article back in December.

See the latest FPIP chart on L2:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32306

(I'll be doing an article detailing the noteworthy info in this FPIP chart later this week.)
Thanks.  :)
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Offline rcoppola

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It would be interesting if SpaceX could use a crewed Dragon variant for the Feb 2015 CRS delivery of the new docking mech. Which I would think would be put in the trunk anyways. Of course this would limit pressurized cargo but...I doubt it and it seems crewed Dragon wouldn't be ready anyway.

I'm just thinking of ways SpaceX could approach this draft by offering milestone and/or certification efficiencies.

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Offline A_M_Swallow

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It would be interesting if SpaceX could use a crewed Dragon variant for the Feb 2015 CRS delivery of the new docking mech. Which I would think would be put in the trunk anyways. Of course this would limit pressurized cargo but...I doubt it and it seems crewed Dragon wouldn't be ready anyway.

I'm just thinking of ways SpaceX could approach this draft by offering milestone and/or certification efficiencies.

Yes, that would be fun since NASA would have to use the arm to berth the Dragon to a CBM.

Offline joek

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My understanding was that the docking adapters are given free to the company. They cannot build cheaper than free. But for commercial flights to non ISS stations in the future they will consider that option.

There is no out-of-pocket expense, but the cost is added for proposal price evaluation:
Quote from: Section M.3 Price Factor (page 160)
When an Offeror, as part of its proposal, intends to use the Government property identified in Clause G.6, NFS 1852.245-76, List of Government Property Furnished, the total evaluated price will be increased by the value of said Government property and any other Government furnished property requested by the Offeror to assure the integrity of the competitive process.

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