Author Topic: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump  (Read 23322 times)

Offline QuantumG

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Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« on: 03/28/2013 10:48 PM »
Documentary.



The video starts with the first test. It uses a hydrogen peroxide gas generator. The video goes on to show the various parts of the V2 rocket inspired turbopump.

This is the first time I've seen amateurs building a turbopump.. pretty amazing I think.
« Last Edit: 03/28/2013 10:58 PM by QuantumG »
I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #1 on: 03/28/2013 10:59 PM »
"You're not supposed to build a turbopump like this, but what if it doesn't know it's not going to work?"
I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #2 on: 03/28/2013 11:14 PM »
The pump achieved a mass flow of 0,675 kg/sec at 20 bars of pressure.

Peter Madsen (the narrator in the video) says they'll be making a bigger pump soon.

"The good thing is that anybody who download the laser file, and can use a TIG welder and bent metal, can reproduce the CS turbine pump."

But next up they'll be doing another test with an improved turbine wheel (it will have double the number of blades, better shape, better nozzles, etc).

I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Online randomly

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Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #3 on: 03/29/2013 12:43 AM »
just gotta love this  :)

Offline Prober

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Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #4 on: 03/29/2013 02:10 AM »
Documentary.



The video starts with the first test. It uses a hydrogen peroxide gas generator. The video goes on to show the various parts of the V2 rocket inspired turbopump.

This is the first time I've seen amateurs building a turbopump.. pretty amazing I think.

these guys are great, very enjoyable.
 
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Offline Morten C.

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Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #5 on: 03/30/2013 01:22 PM »
Here is a bit more on the turbopump project

Peter's blog about the test day and what they learned

Turbo-day CS: Four times a success!

Specially like this picture of the first milliseconds




Video about the hydrogen peroxide plant that CS have build for this project



A few more pictures from the gallery

March 13, 2013
Turbopumpe

Regards

Offline Crispy

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Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #6 on: 03/30/2013 02:04 PM »
Now that's what I call a hobby:)

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #7 on: 04/12/2013 02:23 AM »


Music + Tig welding without gloves.
I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline Morten C.

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Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #8 on: 05/10/2013 08:00 PM »
3 test with the improved turbine wheel

From this blog
It worked: CS new turbine running at more than double the efficiency!

Quote
The results were overwhelmingly positive: We have more than doubled efficiency, and we had demonstrated that a SvanehÝj-fire pump can supply 20 liters of liquid per second at up to 18 bar, driven by a turbine we have built. It is both higher pressure and greater flow than we need. And the best part was that despite the more than doubled the pump power is not increased our consumption of T-stoff.

One of the blade on the turbine wheel gave up in the last test at 170% power. A blade had been damage when a small measurement error, meant that the turbine wheel had to be calibrated with all the blades on the lathe.

Quote
We have found on all unregulated tests seen that the steam generator very briefly rendered slightly more at the T-stoff burnout. We have not quite no explanation why, but apparently something happens differently in the catalyst when flushed with a mixture of T-the substance and propellant. This power spike came as test # 5 ran out. And it was the straw that broke the damaged sheet to crash. Just as we burned out, changed turbine sound slightly. Inside, the damaged leaf caved in and become detached. It took manifest a trip or two around while a number of other turbine blades went in sympathy strike.

Regards

Offline simonbp

Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #9 on: 05/11/2013 12:29 AM »
Ouch, T-stoff. There are much more enjoyable ways to kill yourself.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #10 on: 05/11/2013 01:30 AM »
Ouch, T-stoff. There are much more enjoyable ways to kill yourself.

Thanks for your useful and insightful contribution to this thread. The worth of your input is apparent for all to see.
I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline Lar

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Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #11 on: 05/11/2013 03:10 AM »
Ouch, T-stoff. There are much more enjoyable ways to kill yourself.

Thanks for your useful and insightful contribution to this thread. The worth of your input is apparent for all to see.


Well I dunno. It inspired me to go off and read about " "-Stoff[1]. They came up with a BUNCH of nasty mixtures back then. Was it on-thread? probably not. But you don't have to be snide.

1 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stoffs
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Offline Prober

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Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
« Reply #12 on: 05/11/2013 10:33 PM »
Ouch, T-stoff. There are much more enjoyable ways to kill yourself.

Thanks for your useful and insightful contribution to this thread. The worth of your input is apparent for all to see.


Well I dunno. It inspired me to go off and read about " "-Stoff[1]. They came up with a BUNCH of nasty mixtures back then. Was it on-thread? probably not. But you don't have to be snide.

1 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stoffs
  • A-Stoff: liquid oxygen (LOX)
  • B-Stoff: ethanol / water (used in the V-2)
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    Offline simonbp

    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #13 on: 05/11/2013 11:43 PM »
    Ouch, T-stoff. There are much more enjoyable ways to kill yourself.

    Thanks for your useful and insightful contribution to this thread. The worth of your input is apparent for all to see.


    Concentrated hydrogen peroxide is an extremely dangerous and unstable oxidizer. I am profoundly concerned for anyone having to deal with it, especially amateurs. Too many professionals have been killed by it. Copenhagen Suborbitals would not survive a fatal accident.

    Offline Prober

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #14 on: 05/12/2013 01:27 AM »
    Ouch, T-stoff. There are much more enjoyable ways to kill yourself.

    Thanks for your useful and insightful contribution to this thread. The worth of your input is apparent for all to see.


    Concentrated hydrogen peroxide is an extremely dangerous and unstable oxidizer. I am profoundly concerned for anyone having to deal with it, especially amateurs. Too many professionals have been killed by it. Copenhagen Suborbitals would not survive a fatal accident.

    H202 can be handled ask the Russians that use it in the Progress and Soyuz launches.
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    Offline spectre9

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #15 on: 05/14/2013 09:01 AM »
    Great video, amazing learning experience.

    Exactly how dangerous is hydrogen peroxide?

    Peter talks about it in one of their videos. They're fully aware of what they're doing.

    I didn't even know it was responsible for the Kursk until finding out here.

    Thanks for posting QG  :)

    Offline Steven Pietrobon

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #16 on: 05/21/2013 06:49 AM »
    Concentrated hydrogen peroxide is an extremely dangerous and unstable oxidizer. I am profoundly concerned for anyone having to deal with it, especially amateurs. Too many professionals have been killed by it. Copenhagen Suborbitals would not survive a fatal accident.

    Please give a reference of the "Too many professionals have been killed by it." statement. I know of only person killed by HTP (85% H2O2). This was in Woomera during the 1960's where a woman was killed during a safety demonstration (this is an anecdotal story told to me by someone who had worked at Woomera). HTP had been poured onto concrete during the demonstration, seeped into a crack where it rapidly decomposed, causing an explosion which sent some concrete flying towards the woman's head. I understand pouring LOX onto concrete is just as dangerous.

    Here's what David Andrews, who actually worked with HTP, has to say abouts its safety.

    "The greatest danger in the use of HTP is likely to arise from the fact that it appears so safe. Nine times out of ten, if something goes wrong, nothing much happens. Danger arises if one becomes blasť in consequence: every so often one is sharply reminded that HTP is a strong oxident which must be treated with respect. This means, however, that provided safe practise is followed at all times, HTP is very safe indeed."

    D. Andrews, "Advantages of hydrogen peroxide as a rocket oxidant," J. of the British Interplanetary Society, vol. 43, pp. 319-328, July 1990.

    I've attached a copy of the paper below, along with some other interesting papers on H2O2.

    Another anecdotal story from Woomera is that for fun they would pour HTP onto plants and watch them burst into flames!
    Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

    Offline R7

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #17 on: 05/29/2013 08:46 AM »
    Please give a reference of the "Too many professionals have been killed by it." statement. I know of only person killed by HTP (85% H2O2).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide#Historical_incidents

    Kursk perhaps the most notable.

    Quote
    Another anecdotal story from Woomera is that for fun they would pour HTP onto plants and watch them burst into flames!

    Does a liquid that bursts plants into flames sound very safe?
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    Offline QuantumG

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #18 on: 05/29/2013 08:53 AM »
    It's 80% H2O2. LOX is just as "dangerous".
    « Last Edit: 05/29/2013 10:03 AM by Chris Bergin »
    I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

    Offline Steven Pietrobon

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #19 on: 05/29/2013 09:35 AM »
    Thanks R7. The people killed seems to be from Kursk and this episode:

    "On July 16, 1934, in Kummersdorf, Germany, a rocket engine using hydrogen peroxide exploded, killing three people."

    Well, its not like other rocket engines haven't exploded before killing people. It also doesn't mention what the root cause of the accident was. Also, HTP from that era had large amounts of impurities, so that its decomposition rate was fairly high.

    The Kursk accident is widely believe to be caused by HTP from the torpedoes. The root cause seems to be HTP leaking from rusty torpedo casings. Any other oxidiser could have caused a similar problem.

    Quote
    Does a liquid that bursts plants into flames sound very safe?

    No, it doesn't, because in this case HTP was being used in an unsafe manner. Handling LOX or any other oxidiser in such a manner is just as unsafe.
    « Last Edit: 05/29/2013 09:37 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
    Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

    Offline Steven Pietrobon

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #20 on: 05/29/2013 09:57 AM »
    It's 80% H2O2. LOX is just as "dangerous".

    HTP as used by the British at Woomera is 85% H2O2. Copenhagen Suborbitals are using 90% H2O2.
    « Last Edit: 05/30/2013 05:56 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
    Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

    Offline QuantumG

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #21 on: 05/29/2013 10:07 AM »
    FFS, it's 80% H2O2. LOX is just as "dangerous".

    HTP as used by the British at Woomera is 85% H2O2. Copenhagen Suborbitals are using 90% H2O2.

    They said 80% in their most recent video.

    youtube.com/watch?v=ZvkCCKPS1yY#t=7m06s
    I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

    Offline Prober

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #22 on: 05/29/2013 02:22 PM »
    FFS, it's 80% H2O2. LOX is just as "dangerous".

    HTP as used by the British at Woomera is 85% H2O2. Copenhagen Suborbitals are using 90% H2O2.

    I would add the history of the "British at Woomera" project was a whole different project.  Like everything those many years ago it was a learning experience.
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    Offline Archibald

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #23 on: 05/29/2013 03:37 PM »
    Thanks a lot Steve Pietrobon for having linked David Andrews paper. I sought it for a very long time !
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    Offline R7

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #24 on: 05/30/2013 06:59 PM »
    No, it doesn't, because in this case HTP was being used in an unsafe manner. Handling LOX or any other oxidiser in such a manner is just as unsafe.

    Slightly disagreeing with the "just as" part. Unsafe, yes, but different oxidizers are unsafe in different manners. LOX spills can create wildly combustible or even detonable mixtures, but usually they won't autoignite. I'd consider HTP more dangerous in this fashion because spills over unclean surfaces, cloth etc. cause decomposing, heating up and ignition.

    IMO Mr Andrews nails it in the first sentence you quoted. HTP appears safe, just like water, no cryogenics nor nasal cavity melting fumes. Armadillo Aerospace had videos online showing what happens to shoes etc when you spill HTP on them. Not instant explosion but within seconds things start to smoke and then light up. I guess it's still there somewhere in the project update pages.

    Madsen seemed to have good protective gear while loading HTP to the TP test thingie ... but the flimsy household ladder looked risky. Stack those concrete lego bricks for a stable platform, or better yet, lower the tank to ground level.
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    Offline QuantumG

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #25 on: 05/30/2013 09:46 PM »
    Madsen seemed to have good protective gear while loading HTP to the TP test thingie ... but the flimsy household ladder looked risky. Stack those concrete lego bricks for a stable platform, or better yet, lower the tank to ground level.

    They won't be doing it like that again.
    I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

    Online douglas100

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    Re: Copenhagen Suborbitals build a rocket turbopump
    « Reply #26 on: 05/30/2013 10:52 PM »
    As well HTP being used as an oxidiser for Black Knight and Black Arrow, the Royal Navy used it to propel torpedoes. But they abandoned it after losing a submarine (shades of the Kursk) after an on board explosion.

    http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3473.html

    As others have said, it requires careful handling to avoid coming in contact with impurities.
    Douglas Clark

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