Author Topic: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013  (Read 34505 times)

Offline manboy

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #40 on: 01/16/2013 04:29 PM »
More notes that they really are only concentrating on EM-1 and EM-2 - with spares for EM-2.

No agreement with ESA with missions past EM-2.
This plan sounds awful.
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline IRobot

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #41 on: 01/16/2013 04:29 PM »
Mass is a problem for EM2 but not for EM1?
No crew and no internal equipment...

Offline yg1968

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #42 on: 01/16/2013 04:32 PM »
ESA budget number questions at the moment.
Anyone got the figure?

He said that $450M was the correct figure. 60% of the amount is already budgeted. The remaining 40% should be allocated when they have their 2014 ministerial meeting.


Online Chris Bergin

Orion overmass question.

4,000 lbs over if you take EFT-1 Orion and add all the crew and equipment to EM-1 Orion. "But we're not flying EM-1 [EM-2] Orion tomorrow. So we now what we need to get lighter.

"Mass is going to be a challenge".

Sounds like Constellation all over again, this time Orion being the pain.

He actually said that mass was a problem for EM-2 but not for EM-1.

Yep. Not sure why I wrote EM-1. Always can happen with transcribing, but there's the correction.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #45 on: 01/16/2013 04:58 PM »
I too will add my voice that I find the weight issue kind of strange having watched Orion from its conception as a Lunar spacecraft and itís down scoping (mods) in order to fly on Ares-1. It was always going to be able to return from the Moon under three chutes... What exactly increased it mass, are they bringing a mini-van to Lunar orbit? ;D
« Last Edit: 01/16/2013 04:59 PM by Rocket Science »
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Offline yg1968

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #46 on: 01/16/2013 05:01 PM »
I remember that there were plans to reduce the weight of Orion under Constellation which included getting rid of the toilet. Were these plans ever implemented?
« Last Edit: 01/16/2013 05:56 PM by yg1968 »

Offline Lars_J

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #47 on: 01/16/2013 05:03 PM »
Yes. Orion has not had a toilet for a while. (if it ever did)

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #48 on: 01/16/2013 05:07 PM »
There were versions with toilet, without toilet, crew of 7, 6, 4 etc...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline jacqmans

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #49 on: 01/16/2013 05:15 PM »
ESA workhorse to power NASAís Orion spacecraft

16 January 2013

ESA agreed with NASA today to contribute a driving force to the Orion spacecraft planned for launch in 2017. Ultimately, Orion will carry astronauts further into space than ever before using a module based on Europeís Automated Transfer Vehicle technology.

http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_Spaceflight/Research/ESA_workhorse_to_power_NASA_s_Orion_spacecraft

Offline mr. mark

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #50 on: 01/16/2013 05:15 PM »
This is really a problem. Not sure if it's bad foresight or engineering but clearly this should have been thought out long ago. You can't simply design a spacecraft on the fly. Orion seems to be whatever a current administration or agency wants it to be and that's no way to design a spacecraft.

Offline John44

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Offline majormajor42

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #52 on: 01/16/2013 05:32 PM »
in the video, Orion is not airlifted by a helicopter after splashdown. It is recovered in the bay of an amphibious Naval vessel. The astronauts have already disembarked to one of the boats or a helicopter, yes?

How were the Apollo capsules recovered? If by helicopter, then perhaps Orion is too heavy to be airlifted?

I vaguely recall a Roger Moore Bond film where a deep sea capsule, with a nice bed inside, is recovered by a ship in a similar fashion as this video.

Oh, and is that another Orion capsule already in the bay? Or a stand to put the Orion on to for stowage?

...water is life and it is out there, where we intend to go. I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man or machine on a body such as the Moon and harvest a cup of water for a human to drink or process into fuel for their craft.

Offline Star One

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #53 on: 01/16/2013 05:53 PM »
in the video, Orion is not airlifted by a helicopter after splashdown. It is recovered in the bay of an amphibious Naval vessel. The astronauts have already disembarked to one of the boats or a helicopter, yes?

How were the Apollo capsules recovered? If by helicopter, then perhaps Orion is too heavy to be airlifted?

I vaguely recall a Roger Moore Bond film where a deep sea capsule, with a nice bed inside, is recovered by a ship in a similar fashion as this video.

Oh, and is that another Orion capsule already in the bay? Or a stand to put the Orion on to for stowage?



You're talking about the Spy Who Loved Me, yes the sea capsule at the end of that was winched aboard a ship by a crane at the end.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #54 on: 01/16/2013 05:58 PM »
Sadly, I think this announcement is a significant nail in the coffin of Orion. (not the first) I am doubtful that EM-1 will ever fly.

Offline AnalogMan

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Offline Star One

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #56 on: 01/16/2013 06:03 PM »
Sadly, I think this announcement is a significant nail in the coffin of Orion. (not the first) I am doubtful that EM-1 will ever fly.

That's a very pessimistic statement to make at this stage?

Offline yg1968

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #57 on: 01/16/2013 06:05 PM »
Image of the day on NASA.gov:
« Last Edit: 01/16/2013 06:05 PM by yg1968 »

Offline IRobot

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #58 on: 01/16/2013 06:20 PM »
Sadly, I think this announcement is a significant nail in the coffin of Orion. (not the first) I am doubtful that EM-1 will ever fly.
Why? The ATV is proven tech, better than the cracked hull of Orion! Can you substantiate your vision?

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #59 on: 01/16/2013 06:25 PM »
Regarding overmass on EM-2:

IIRC, the problem Orion had during the final months of Project Constellation was that the capsule was too heavy, with all life-support supplies for six crew on a standard-duration mission, to be safely recovered by parachute in the event of a launch abort.  The mass was too high to give margin if one 'chute failed (I believe one did on one of the lunar Apollos so it isn't an unprecedented failure mode).  There is insufficient room in the Apollo-geometry capsule for a fourth parachute.

What this announcement is saying is that, even with the reduction of crew to four and the CxP-era cutting Orion's mass down to the bone, there may still be issues with parachute capacity in the event of a launch abort.  This is alarming, as is the team's clear uncertainty if they can hit the budgeted mass.
« Last Edit: 01/16/2013 06:26 PM by Ben the Space Brit »
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