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Yaogan Weixing-17, Long March 4C, JSLC - September 1, 2013
by
beidou
on 13 Dec, 2012 18:55
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A thread for this launch, will be updated upon information from Chinese sources becomes available.
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#1
by
Satori
on 14 Dec, 2012 12:53
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Is this thread for YG-18 or YG-17?
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#2
by
Phillip Clark
on 14 Dec, 2012 17:16
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Is this thread for YG-18 or YG-17?
YG-17.5?
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#3
by
beidou
on 14 Dec, 2012 18:16
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Is this thread for YG-18 or YG-17?
YG-17.5?
Sorry guys, my mistake...
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#4
by
Satori
on 24 Aug, 2013 10:35
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The Chang Zheng-4C launch vehicle for this mission is already at Jiuquan.
Launch can possibly take place at the end of August 2013.
According to Galactic Penguin this can be a triplet launch (YG-17A/B/C).
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#5
by
beidou
on 24 Aug, 2013 16:39
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#6
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 27 Aug, 2013 23:12
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Maybe this launch will be in the next a few hours. A NOTAM has been published for air route closure close to Jiuquan area.
http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=11160&pid=262751&fromuid=24484
"A1301/13 - A TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA ESTABLISHED IN ZWUQ FIR : CENTERED AT N404554E0933800, WITH RADIUS OF 50KM, VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC-UNL. ALL ACFT ARE PROHIBITED TO FLY INTO THE AREA. SFC - UNL, 27 AUG 23:50 2013 UNTIL 28 AUG 03:00 2013. CREATED: 27 AUG 16:46 2013
A1297/13 - THE FLW SEGMENTS OF ATS RTE CLSD: 1. B215: NUKTI-JIAYUGUAN VOR 'CHW'. 2. G470: BIKNO-DUNHUANG VOR'DNH'. 3. W112: AKTOB-TUSLI 4. Y1: DUMIN -AKAGI. 27 AUG 23:50 2013 UNTIL 28 AUG 03:00 2013. CREATED: 27 AUG 15:15 2013"
Doesn't look right to me since this heads towards the west. Maybe it's something else...
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#7
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 30 Aug, 2013 08:38
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#8
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 01 Sep, 2013 04:02
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There are unconfirmed rumors of this launch happening tomorrow - will try to confirm ASAP.
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#9
by
Satori
on 01 Sep, 2013 15:48
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There are unconfirmed rumors of this launch happening tomorrow - will try to confirm ASAP.
Looks like people on 9ifly space forum are expecting a launch in the next hours or so, but I think that this is mainly due to what was posted on zarya.info. Is there any other source that points to a possible launch tomorrow?
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#10
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 01 Sep, 2013 15:55
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There are unconfirmed rumors of this launch happening tomorrow - will try to confirm ASAP.
Looks like people on 9ifly space forum are expecting a launch in the next hours or so, but I think that this is mainly due to what was posted on zarya.info. Is there any other source that points to a possible launch tomorrow?
The news appears to be from one Chinese micro-blogger who is part of the satellite team - although I'm unable to find the source of that at this moment. The launch time from Robert Christy assumes that it will be launched into a 3rd orbital plane 74 degrees from the next one - a feature inherited from the American NOSS.
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#11
by
Liss
on 01 Sep, 2013 21:59
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Already launched -- at 03:16 Beijing Time = 19:16 UTC.
新华网酒泉9月2日电 (记者李清华、李紫恒)9月2日3时16分，我国在酒泉卫星发射中心用长征四号丙运载火箭，成功将遥感卫星十七号发射升空，卫星顺利进入预定轨道。
遥感卫星十七号主要用于科学试验、国土资源普查、农作物估产及防灾减灾等领域。这是长征系列运载火箭的第180次发射。
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#12
by
Satori
on 01 Sep, 2013 23:11
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Already launched -- at 03:16 Beijing Time = 19:16 UTC.
新华网酒泉9月2日电 (记者李清华、李紫恒)9月2日3时16分，我国在酒泉卫星发射中心用长征四号丙运载火箭，成功将遥感卫星十七号发射升空，卫星顺利进入预定轨道。
遥感卫星十七号主要用于科学试验、国土资源普查、农作物估产及防灾减灾等领域。这是长征系列运载火箭的第180次发射。
Thanks for the update, Igor!!!
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#13
by
Satori
on 01 Sep, 2013 23:46
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Previously was said that the CZ-4C for YG-17 had the serial number Y13.
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#14
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 02 Sep, 2013 00:43
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Yuck! From the orbital planes of the similar American NOSS system, I knew that there are 2 launch windows - one at around 04:30 UTC today (which would put YG-17's plane ~72 deg. west of that of YG-16) and another at ~18:30 UTC (putting these three satellites in an orbital plane ~72 deg. east of that of YG-9) - so when I found nothing on the Chinese blogs by 17:30Z (1:30 am here!) I went to sleep. Unfortunately the first hints came half an hour later.
This launch means that a tri-triplet operational system has been formed - a similar alignment can be seen with the last three launches of the American NOSS system:
Satellite(s) name Longitude of ascending node (deg.)
USA-238 (NROL-36) ~0
USA-229 (NROL-34) ~74
USA-194 (NROL-30) ~148
YG-16 ~0
YG-9 ~75
YG-17 ~149
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#15
by
jcm
on 02 Sep, 2013 00:43
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TLEs now available for 5 objects - presumably 3 sats, 1 rocket stage and 2 debris
objects.
The satellites are in 1079 x 1108 km x 63.4 deg orbits; the third stage
made a depletion bun to 890 x 1104 km
Catalog 39239 to 39244, 2013-046A to F
Recently Space-Track retrospectively cataloged a bunch of debris objects
from CZ-4C launches; seems likely that these are operational debris
associated with the third stage or its payload separation system, perhaps
analogous to the retro motor covers seen with the CZ-2C second stage
(although without their large delta-V).
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#16
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 02 Sep, 2013 01:10
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A few photos:
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#17
by
Targeteer
on 02 Sep, 2013 05:17
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This quote from the feature story
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/09/long-march-4c-launches-yg17-mission/ (2 or 3 different types of satellites in the triplet) seems off compared to assessments of the US system that they are/were 3 identical satellites operating in concert...
"Being similar to the US counterpart, the triplet comprises an electro-optical surveillance satellite, an synthetic aperture radar (SAR) satellite, and possibly an electronic/signal intelligence satellite.
Designed for locating and tracking foreign warships the satellites will collect the optical and radio electronic signatures of the maritime vessels that will be used in conjunction with other information valuable for the Chinese maritime forces."
http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/surveill/noss_andronov.htm"For determining the bearings of signals from different directions using the method of time difference of arrival, the intersatellite baselines (the imaginary straight line segments connecting the satellites) should form a right angle (or, at least, not be parallel). These conditions are fulfilled through the orbital parameters chosen for the satellites. As a group flies over the equator the baselines form a figure which is close to a right triangle (Fig. 2). However, in the polar regions, as the satellites go through latitudes which correspond to the maximum inclination of their orbits (around 63 deg.), the form of the group changes, and the satellites follow practically along one and the same trajectory one after the other. In order to avoid decreased signal bearing accuracy, the apogee portion of the orbit of one of the satellites is shifted relative to the apogee portions of the others. Thanks to this, in the polar regions one of the satellites moves 50 to 100 km lower [sic; this doesn't seem to agree with Figures 2 and 3] than the remaining ones, which lets the direction-finding baselines spread out and eliminates the "zone of inaccessability." (Fig. 3) "
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#18
by
Satori
on 02 Sep, 2013 07:30
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Mod images of the launch...
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#19
by
Artyom.
on 02 Sep, 2013 13:58
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Launch video:
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#20
by
Chris Bergin
on 02 Sep, 2013 14:11
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#21
by
input~2
on 02 Sep, 2013 14:21
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#22
by
jcm
on 02 Sep, 2013 14:51
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This quote from the feature story http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/09/long-march-4c-launches-yg17-mission/ (2 or 3 different types of satellites in the triplet) seems off compared to assessments of the US system that they are/were 3 identical satellites operating in concert...
"Being similar to the US counterpart, the triplet comprises an electro-optical surveillance satellite, an synthetic aperture radar (SAR) satellite, and possibly an electronic/signal intelligence satellite.
"
I agree, this seems wrong - Rui, maybe you know something I don't?
I assumed this was three identical satellites using time-of-arrival
analysis to locate radio signals, just like the old NOSS-PARCAE triplets.
I suggest deleting this sentence unless you have reason to believe it is correct.
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#23
by
Liss
on 02 Sep, 2013 16:04
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My memory says that the outlier satellite is heavier and more capable (e.g. provides for onboard processing of information).
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#24
by
Satori
on 02 Sep, 2013 17:05
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This quote from the feature story http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/09/long-march-4c-launches-yg17-mission/ (2 or 3 different types of satellites in the triplet) seems off compared to assessments of the US system that they are/were 3 identical satellites operating in concert...
"Being similar to the US counterpart, the triplet comprises an electro-optical surveillance satellite, an synthetic aperture radar (SAR) satellite, and possibly an electronic/signal intelligence satellite.
"
I agree, this seems wrong - Rui, maybe you know something I don't?
I assumed this was three identical satellites using time-of-arrival
analysis to locate radio signals, just like the old NOSS-PARCAE triplets.
I suggest deleting this sentence unless you have reason to believe it is correct.
I believe is correct, as the information about the satellites is based on the information provided by
http://www.dragoninspace.com/earth-observation/yaogan.aspx.
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#25
by
jcm
on 02 Sep, 2013 17:52
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This quote from the feature story http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/09/long-march-4c-launches-yg17-mission/ (2 or 3 different types of satellites in the triplet) seems off compared to assessments of the US system that they are/were 3 identical satellites operating in concert...
"Being similar to the US counterpart, the triplet comprises an electro-optical surveillance satellite, an synthetic aperture radar (SAR) satellite, and possibly an electronic/signal intelligence satellite.
"
I agree, this seems wrong - Rui, maybe you know something I don't?
I assumed this was three identical satellites using time-of-arrival
analysis to locate radio signals, just like the old NOSS-PARCAE triplets.
I suggest deleting this sentence unless you have reason to believe it is correct.
I believe is correct, as the information about the satellites is based on the information provided by http://www.dragoninspace.com/earth-observation/yaogan.aspx.
Interesting. If that info is correct (and I am skeptical) then it's quite different from the US version which is believed to be purely SIGINT.
I wonder if the source was passed information that confused the different roles of the Yaogan program in general (which does of course
include optical, SAR and ELINT) with the roles of the three Yaogan 9
satellites in particular.
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#26
by
jcm
on 02 Sep, 2013 17:55
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#27
by
Satori
on 02 Sep, 2013 18:05
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Official Chinese news story on the launch
http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2013-09/02/c_125297745.shtml
Note that it doesn't mention the fact that Yaogan 17 is three satellites rather than one. Has there been any official Chinese mention of the triple nature of the
satellites for Yaogan 9 or 16?
I have to look for that, but I think there were two reasons to point for three satellites on board this launch (and on YG-9 and YG-16): the longer fairing used and the visual observations of the three satellites flying in formation.
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#28
by
Liss
on 02 Sep, 2013 18:05
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Has there been any official Chinese mention of the triple nature of the satellites for Yaogan 9 or 16?
Unofficial, yes.
Academician Ye Peijian mentioned on March 6, 2010, launch of three satellites by one rocket, and Aerospace Dongfanghong Satellite Co. in its 2009 report prognosed launch of a group of small satellites in 2010.
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#29
by
jcm
on 02 Sep, 2013 18:08
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Has there been any official Chinese mention of the triple nature of the satellites for Yaogan 9 or 16?
Unofficial, yes.
Academician Ye Peijian mentioned on March 6, 2010, launch of three satellites by one rocket, and Aerospace Dongfanghong Satellite Co. in its 2009 report prognosed launch of a group of small satellites in 2010.
But couldn't that be a reference to things like the SJ-15/SY-7/CX-3 launch? So as far as I can tell, there has been no *official* Chinese acknowledgement that there is more than one satellite on any of these
*specific* launches YW-9, 16, 17. Indeed for YW-9 there was a UN registration of Yaogan 9 as a single satellite.
Here's the link to the English version
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2013-09/02/c_132683437.htm
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#30
by
Satori
on 02 Sep, 2013 18:19
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I wouldn't wait China to acknowledge anything more than to have launched a "remote-sensing satellite" that "will be used to conduct scientific experiments, carry out land surveys, monitor crop yields and aid in reducing and preventing natural disasters."
I think it is widely accepted that the 'Yaogan' designation is used the same way the 'Cosmos' designation was used by the Soviet Union.
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#31
by
Liss
on 02 Sep, 2013 18:35
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I think it is widely accepted that the 'Yaogan' designation is used the same way the 'Cosmos' designation was used by the Soviet Union.
Yet the Soviet Union had never announced launch of one Cosmos satellite when in fact there were three. It is this surge of secrecy what is quite strange with the three Jianbing 8 launches.
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#32
by
Star One
on 03 Sep, 2013 13:42
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Where is the root of the information that these satellites work in such a different way than the NOSS ones?
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#33
by
Satori
on 03 Sep, 2013 13:53
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This quote from the feature story http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/09/long-march-4c-launches-yg17-mission/ (2 or 3 different types of satellites in the triplet) seems off compared to assessments of the US system that they are/were 3 identical satellites operating in concert...
"Being similar to the US counterpart, the triplet comprises an electro-optical surveillance satellite, an synthetic aperture radar (SAR) satellite, and possibly an electronic/signal intelligence satellite.
"
I agree, this seems wrong - Rui, maybe you know something I don't?
I assumed this was three identical satellites using time-of-arrival
analysis to locate radio signals, just like the old NOSS-PARCAE triplets.
I suggest deleting this sentence unless you have reason to believe it is correct.
Done some checking and in fact this looks to be the case. My source was wrong, so the text was corrected.
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#34
by
JimO
on 03 Sep, 2013 16:40
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Very interesting video captured in Melbourne at "5 AM" showing an apparent venting object crossing pre-dawn sky. How close did the first orbit ground track pass that area?
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#35
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 03 Sep, 2013 16:53
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Very interesting video captured in Melbourne at "5 AM" showing an apparent venting object crossing pre-dawn sky. How close did the first orbit ground track pass that area?
5 am AEST is 20:00 UTC right? The timing and launch track sounds right to be related to this launch, but someone else will need to do the graphics for me....
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#36
by
JimO
on 03 Sep, 2013 17:26
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Very interesting video captured in Melbourne at "5 AM" showing an apparent venting object crossing pre-dawn sky. How close did the first orbit ground track pass that area?
5 am AEST is 20:00 UTC right? The timing and launch track sounds right to be related to this launch, but someone else will need to do the graphics for me....
Follow-up. The sighting was at 5:45 AM, which is perfect for the launch. Here's the video:
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#37
by
input~2
on 03 Sep, 2013 17:46
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5:45am in Melbourne Sept 2 is 1945UTC Sept 1; this launch was at 1916UTC Sept 1.
Could fit!
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#38
by
Fuji
on 04 Sep, 2013 01:41
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Very interesting Japanese news story from china xinhua.
They watched here
NASASpaceFlight was reported successfully launched (remote sensing) satellite.
This article pointed out that the satellite sees ocean surveillance satellite with military applications.
In response to an interview with Global Times, military expert of China are aimed at people for marine traffic and safety. Land surveying, disaster prevention mitigation for the launch of remote-sensing satellite to help economic construction of the country. U.S. is always criticizing other countries, but they has been the launch of secret frequently.
http://www.xinhua.jp/socioeconomy/photonews/358563/
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#39
by
input~2
on 04 Sep, 2013 05:01
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Very interesting Japanese news story from china xinhua.
They watched here
NASASpaceFlight was reported successfully launched (remote sensing) satellite.
This article pointed out that the satellite sees ocean surveillance satellite with military applications.
In response to an interview with Global Times, military expert of China are aimed at people for marine traffic and safety. Land surveying, disaster prevention mitigation for the launch of remote-sensing satellite to help economic construction of the country. U.S. is always criticizing other countries, but they has been the launch of secret frequently.
http://www.xinhua.jp/socioeconomy/photonews/358563/
Thanks Fuji.
I think the first sentence should translate as
NASASpaceFlight was reported successfully launched Yaogan-17 satellite.
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#40
by
Zannanza
on 04 Sep, 2013 13:12
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Just curious. CZ-4C has a fairing diameter of 3.35m and a payload capacity of approx. 4mT to LEO, this will give an average of 1.33mT per satellite. This is much smaller than typical radar and optical spy satellites launched by the US or even Japan and Europe, which typically require medium to heavy EELVs to put just one into orbit. Can anyone tell me what kind of spy satellites can be accommodated by a 1,000kg-class satellite bus? Thanks.
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#41
by
Skyrocket
on 04 Sep, 2013 13:34
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Just curious. CZ-4C has a fairing diameter of 3.35m and a payload capacity of approx. 4mT to LEO, this will give an average of 1.33mT per satellite. This is much smaller than typical radar and optical spy satellites launched by the US or even Japan and Europe, which typically require medium to heavy EELVs to put just one into orbit. Can anyone tell me what kind of spy satellites can be accommodated by a 1,000kg-class satellite bus? Thanks.
The spacecraft mass gives not much information on the type of spacecraft. For example, the German SAR-Lupe radar spy sats (1 m resolution) have only a weight of just 770 kg (
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/sar-lupe.htm) and the Israeli Ofeq optical spysats (~0.5 m resolution) have masses of about 300 kg (
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/ofeq-3.htm)
In the case of YG 17, the payload is an ELINT payload. Also a 2.9 m diameter fairing was used, not a 3.35 m one.
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#42
by
jcm
on 04 Sep, 2013 22:39
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Very interesting Japanese news story from china xinhua.
They watched here
NASASpaceFlight was reported successfully launched (remote sensing) satellite.
This article pointed out that the satellite sees ocean surveillance satellite with military applications.
In response to an interview with Global Times, military expert of China are aimed at people for marine traffic and safety. Land surveying, disaster prevention mitigation for the launch of remote-sensing satellite to help economic construction of the country. U.S. is always criticizing other countries, but they has been the launch of secret frequently.
http://www.xinhua.jp/socioeconomy/photonews/358563/
Thanks Fuji.
I think the first sentence should translate as
NASASpaceFlight was reported successfully launched Yaogan-17 satellite.
Or, in English,
NASASpaceFlight reported the successful launch of the Yaogan-17 satellite.
:-)
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#43
by
JimO
on 05 Sep, 2013 04:04
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I've done a freehand sketch of the rev 0 ground track, which shows the Melbourne flyover an hour before sunrise. But now with the TLEs out could somebody please run off and post a graphic of that ground track?
In further work to elucidate the nature of the several white dots seen by multiple Melbourne observers, does anyone have any reference data on the nominal payload ejection times?
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#44
by
der Architekt
on 05 Sep, 2013 07:21
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YG series is indeed military satellites
There exist Chinese publications that suggest YG series might be used to triangulate and detect locations of aircraft carrier groups and relay the info to PLA's ballistic anti-ship missile facility
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#45
by
Liss
on 05 Sep, 2013 07:43
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In the 2010 launch, the track did pass over Melbourne as seen in images.
My calculations then gave third stage deorbit fire at 31 min after the launch.
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#46
by
input~2
on 05 Sep, 2013 11:35
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I've done a freehand sketch of the rev 0 ground track, which shows the Melbourne flyover an hour before sunrise. But now with the TLEs out could somebody please run off and post a graphic of that ground track?
In further work to elucidate the nature of the several white dots seen by multiple Melbourne observers, does anyone have any reference data on the nominal payload ejection times?
Here is a portion of the first orbit of Object-D (using the first published tle, epoch 2028UTC, and Orbitron). The object was overhead Melbourne at 1948UTC corresponding to the sighting time.
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#47
by
JimO
on 05 Sep, 2013 11:58
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Can we combine these two VERY helpful responses and conclude the stage was doing its burn WHILE in sight of Melbourne. Could that be what the video is showing? How long was the burn?
ADD: I'm guessing that an analysis of the booster post-burn orbit parameters would allow calculation of the interval during which the orbit lowering burn occurred, right?
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#48
by
JimO
on 05 Sep, 2013 16:03
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Very nice, this nails down the stimulus...
Igor Lissov has pointed out that the last stage orbit lowering burn
on the previous triplet occurred at L + 31 minutes, so the question arises,
were these guys seeing the rocket burn, the post burn dump, or both?
One could compute the burn event time by tracking back the booster's TLE.
And if we can estimate delta-V we can estimate burn duration.
Alternately, there may be no 'burn', no actual engine ignition, since the post-deploy orbit lowering may be performed BY the fuel dump itself. Just speculating.
Ted Molczan's solution to the sighting:
Video of Yaogan 17 rocket fuel dump // Thu Sep 05 2013 - 14:23:27 UTC
http://satobs.org/seesat/Sep-2013/0067.html
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#49
by
JimO
on 05 Sep, 2013 19:18
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We won't be getting any more help from the guy in Melbourne who made the original videotape. He's just deleted all the comments that argue his 'UFO' was the Chinese launch, with the statement:
"Lou20764 31 minutes ago -- Not putting up with a organized attack by trolls anymore - I just took out the garbage and I feel good about it. If some of you want to belive this was a Chinese rocket - Fine."
Sad, but not unusual.
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#50
by
JimO
on 05 Sep, 2013 21:33
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How can we check contacts in Oz to ask about any local media coverage in the last few days that may have reported, or offered explanations for, the Melbourne sighting -- or was it just not all that impressive? Thanks!
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#51
by
Targeteer
on 06 Sep, 2013 01:01
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#52
by
Targeteer
on 07 Sep, 2013 03:00
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#53
by
input~2
on 07 Sep, 2013 19:30
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USSTRATCOM has now identified the 6 objects as:
A: Yaogan-17A
B: Yaogan-17B
C: Yaogan-17C
D: Rocket body (CZ-4C R/B)
E & F: CZ-4C debris
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#54
by
jcm
on 07 Sep, 2013 23:53
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USSTRATCOM has now identified the 6 objects as:
A: Yaogan-17A
B: Yaogan-17B
C: Yaogan-17C
D: Rocket body (CZ-4C R/B)
E & F: CZ-4C debris
but be careful, they also switched the identities of the pieces today.
C is what used to be F and B is what used to be E, I think
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#55
by
JimO
on 08 Sep, 2013 19:42
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Any official Chinese release of elements, including inclination and orbital period?
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#56
by
beidou
on 08 Sep, 2013 19:57
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Not yet, and we shouldn't expect one.
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#57
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 09 Sep, 2013 00:39
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Any official Chinese release of elements, including inclination and orbital period?
They sometimes don't even do that for Shenzhou missions, so nope.
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#58
by
fatjohn1408
on 10 Sep, 2013 16:24
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Are these satellites still developped and operated by CAST? I can find no source of that but previous versions of Yaogan were.
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#59
by
limen4
on 11 Sep, 2013 07:16
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Are these satellites still developped and operated by CAST? I can find no source of that but previous versions of Yaogan were.
The triple-sat Yaogan are based on the CAST-2000 (former CAST-968) platform. The first satellites of this type have been built in Beijing but the production of microsatellites was later transfered to the Shenzhen based Aerospace Dongfanghong Satellite Company which is a CAST subsidary. The operator of the Yaogan satellites is very likely the PLA General Staff Department but this is only a guess.
